by digderidoo 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I thought the end began in 1874 according to Russell.
Russell did say later that 1914 would be "the end of the gentile times". But what i am failing to get through to him is how the meaning they had for it at the time meant that 1914 wasn't a prediction. How can it be a prediction when they decided to change the meaning of the term?
Paul
Thanks blondie i'll use that. That is a WT publication isn't it?
Paul
Perhaps this would be of some use (from the article "KNOWLEDGE AND FAITH REGARDING CHRONOLOGY"):
But let us suppose a case far from our expectations: Suppose that A.D. 1915 should pass with the world's affairs all serene and with evidence that the "very elect" had not all been "changed" and without the restoration of natural Israel to favor under the New Covenant.(Rom. 11:12,15.) What then? Would not that prove our chronology wrong? Yes, surely! And would not that prove a keen disappointment? Indeed it would! It would work irreparable wreck tothe Parallel dispensations and Israel's Double, and to the Jubilee calculations, and to the prophecy of the 2300 days of Daniel, and to the epoch called "Gentile Times," and to the 1260, 1290 and 1335 days, the latter of which marking the beginning of the Harvest so well fulfilled its prediction, "Oh, the blessedness of him that waiteth and cometh unto the 1335 days!" None of these would be available longer. What a blow that would be! One of the strings of our "harp" would be quite broken! Watch Tower Reprints, p.5368 (December, 1913)
Hope this helps...
You could also mention that the official teaching used to be that Christ's "invisible presence" (parousia) began in 1874. This doctrine was not changed until well after 1914. Someone else would have to supply the references though - on the other hand, I think it is mentioned in the "Proclaimers" book.
Perhaps a switch up using the question..."how would you feel if they society changed it to 1975" since this essentially what happened before...
'The end of the Gentile Times'???? Sorry, I hate to break the news to your JW friend, but there ARE no 'Gentile Times'. It's all a crazy delusion dreamed up by Russell, Ruherford, et al. So the 'end' of the so-called Gentile Times will never happen because it's just a figment of someone's fervid imagination. The world will continue to proceed merrily along it's path for centuries to come, totally disregarding the JWs crack-pot theories.
Thanks for all the references so far, i will use some.
I have come with many references as to how they viewed 1914 beforehand. But the crux for him is they still said the "the end of the gentile times" would happen, so it's still a prediction. I don't see the logic myself if all they have done is change the meaning. I will answer him but i ain't going to do it till tomorrow.
It's sort of made me realise that you can't argue with a JW, but at the same time there are others listening in. It aint a JW site, it's a bible discussion one with a JW section, so it attracts all who are interested in the bible.
Paul
What year was that printed bennyk? It looks a good one.
Paul
1799 was held as the beginning of the ‘time of the end (end of the Ostrogothic era in 539AD counting 1260 days/ day for a year) . --Harp of god p. 230 par 397
1874 was time of Christ’s second coming (invisible) (539AD counting 1335 days/day for a year). –Harp of god p. 230 par 398
Off of Alan F's site:
Russell stated clearly in the October 1, 1907 Watch Tower, on p. 296, what would result if his 1914/5 predictions went unfulfilled:
.... Suppose that A.D. 1915 should pass with the world's affairs all serene and with evidence that the "very elect" had not all been "changed" and without the restoration of natural Israel to favor under the New Covenant (Rom. 11:12,15). What then? Would not that prove our chronology wrong? Yes, surely! Would not that prove a keen disappointment? Indeed it would! It would work irreparable wreck to the parallel dispensations and Israel's double, and to the Jubilee calculations, and to the prophecy of the 2300 days of Daniel, and to the epoch called "Gentile Times," and to the 1,260, 1,290, and 1,335 days.... none of these would be available longer.
