The end of the gentile times....

by digderidoo 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    I have been having a serious dicussion on another site with a JW. So far i think i have got my point across regarding 1914 and how the date wasn't actually predicted. Whereas he has come back and said that they did in fact predict "the end of the gentile times".

    To a point he is right, Russell and his associates did say this. But what i am failing to get through to him is that they redefined the meaning of the term.

    I am about to prepare another response to him, but one thing that i want to ask, i think i am right in saying that nowhere in the bible does it speak of the end of the gentile times? Am i right in this. Is the term "the end of the gentile times" a made up JW term?

    The debate i am having with him just seems to be going around in circles, to be honest i wish i hadn't have started it.

    Paul

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    1914, eh? The End of the Gentile Times? How did they come up with that year?

  • megs
    megs

    Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    Are there any others? My knowledge of where scripture is has faded.

    Paul

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    Double post

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    What are the "times" of the Gentiles?

    The exact expression "times of the Gentiles," or "appointed times of the nations," is only found at one place in the Scriptures, Luke 21:24, where Jesus said the following: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (NIV)

    Dedicated Bible students have long recognized that Jesus' prophecy had a much longer-range application than to just the ancient city of Jerusalem, which has on more than one occasion been laid waste by trampling invaders. "Jerusalem," according to the prophets and apostles, would come to represent the very kingdom of God since it was in the literal city of Jerusalem where the Davidic dynasty was originally established. Christ Jesus also presented himself as God's messianic king to the citizens of Jerusalem. Jerusalem was thus considered the capital city of Jehovah's royal kingdom. For that reason, the city of Jerusalem is used in prophecy to represent various aspects of God's heavenly kingdom.

    Jehovah's Witnesses have understood that the present political system that has dominated the earth, as well as God's people, will at some point give way to the rule of God's kingdom. The last days are basically an interval of time marked by a changing of the guard, whereby man's rule goes through a tumultuous upheaval as it ultimately gives way to the kingdom of Jehovah's glorious heavenly Messiah.

    Now, we must ask some searching questions: If the kingdom of the world actually gave way to Christ's kingdom in 1914, why, after nearly ninety years, do the nations of this world still exercise total domination over the earth? What has changed since 1914? Clearly, as regards the political nations of this world doing as they please, nothing has changed.

    Does the mere growth of the Watchtower Society indicate that Christ has now taken complete control of earth's affairs? Why should it? In the 1st century, the apostles and disciples of Jesus similarly spread the kingdom gospel far and wide, and yet that was no indication that any such appointed times of the nations had expired way back then. As the Scriptures indicate, Christ has indeed ruled in his kingdom since its advent in the year 33 CE, and as king, Christ has directed his congregation since its inception.

    What is even more perplexing in this connection is our interpretation of the prophecy in the 7th chapter of Daniel. That prophecy foretells that at the time that God gives the kingdom to the Son of man and the holy ones, that afterwards a brief extension of time is given to the beastly political system amounting to an enigmatic "three and one-half times," during which time the beastly king is said to continually harass the holy ones. Yes, more than mere harassment, Daniel 12:7 makes reference to the same "appointed time, times and a half," and says: "And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy ones to pieces, all these things will come to their finish."

    "All these things" that the prophet refers to have to do with the end of the human system of things. Now, if the holy ones were supposedly dashed to pieces during the 1916-1919 period, why, then, haven't "all these things" come to their finish?

    Not only that, but the 8th chapter of Daniel similarly foretells how the holy ones will be brought to ruin and trampled underfoot for a period amounting to 2,300 "evenings and mornings," which the Watchtower attributes to a period during the Second World War. Again, we raise the question: If the symbolic Jerusalem ceased to be trampled on by the nations in 1914, as we now suppose, why is it that the nations continue to trample on the holy ones of the kingdom for an appointed time after we imagine that the time for such trampling has ended?

    What we have is a contradictory and confusing patchwork of prophecy that has the appointed times for the nations to trample God's kingdom ending in 1914. Then, we have an additional three and a-half year period during WWI where the nations harass and trample God's people underfoot again. The Watchtower has also applied to a period during WWII yet another prophecy that foretells of God's holy ones being trampled underfoot by the political powers.

    Not only that, but we must also reconcile the fact that many prophecies point to a still future time of tribulation, when God's holy place will be violated and trampled upon by the nations

    By such arbitrary interpretations of prophecy, we are rendering the words of Christ regarding the end of the Gentile times more or less meaningless. If the appointed times of the nations ended in 1914, and yet year after year since then the nations are allowed to carry on in business-as-usual fashion just as before, we must either conclude that the kingdom of Christ is a powerless institution, or, more reasonably, that the kingdom of the world has not yet been given to Christ. Ominously, that would inevitably mean that the above-mentioned prophecies of Daniel have not been fulfilled yet and that God's people are going to be waylaid by events yet to develop. With that distinct possibility in view, one can begin to finally grasp how absolutely vital it is that we reexamine just what the so-called Gentile times purport to be.

  • darth frosty
    darth frosty

    The only proof you need of what the Bible students back then thought was going to happen in october of 1914 is the picture of them outside bethel in white robes ready to taken to heaven.

  • blondie
    blondie

    "...1799 definitely marks the beginning of 'the time of the end'.... 'The time of the end' embraces a period from A.D. 1799, as above indicated, to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's empire....we have been in 'the time of the end' since 1799" (The Harp of God, 1928 ed., pp. 235-36, 239).

    “Twelve hundred and sixty years from 539,A.D. brings us to 1799, which is another proof that 1799 definitely marks the beginning of 'the time of the end” (Creation, 1927, 298).

  • yknot
    yknot

    I thought the end began in 1874 according to Russell.

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    If anyone wants to chip in a comment to him they are more than welcome. He is one of those JW's who has to get the last word in, but there are others on the site i am getting through to.

    Paul

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