Jeremiah and the 70 years. Jewish exile or Babylonian rule?

by digderidoo 103 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  scholar

  Narkissos

  Post 8754

  The five references of the 'seventy years' by Josephus are certainly consistent with the testimony of the Bible writers that this period can only be viewed as a period of servitude-exile-desolation from the Fall to the Return, He is the only secular historian of Jewish history outside of the authors of the OT even though he is a first century historian far removed from the sixth century his testimony must stand on its own merits, He remains the sole source for Berossus who himself lived some three centuries from that late Judean period. Secular history is imperfect and we have use those records that are available even though these are not contemporaneous with the events in question. For this reason, the testimony of Bible writers is far superior as they recorded events as observed at the time or soon thereafter.

  In regard to the seventy years which Jeremiah and Daniel experience first hand and soon after were commented upon by Ezra and Zechariah so their testimony as a collective is nicely confirmed by Josephus.

  You too make assertions without proof at a particular time for example in your post 8717 that the seventy years is a round number, that the seventy year texts do not have the same period in view, and that there are three interpretations of the period none of which is supported by argument. What I do agree with you is that within scholarship and apostate opinion, the seventy years has become a complex situation.

  It is certainly correct that there are conflicting views of the seventy years and you have your own view and Jonsson has another in which he unlike yourself views the seventy years as a period of Babylonian domination and serviude. If I am incorrect on this point then please confirm whether you agree totally with Jonsson and if not please explain how you differ.

  The two references in Zechariah to the seventy years refers to that past historic period as this is the only view thatmakes sense otherwise you periods all over the place and how could a Jew living then or a person living now have any means of knowing what time period is in question. Jonsson's analysis of these texts is impossible and the chronology is plain stupid. Do you agree with the chronology that he sets forth? Rolf Furuli who is a competent Hebre schollar has examined the philology and the linguistics of those texts and proves that the Hebrew syntax shows that Zechariah was speaking of a previous period of seventy years, known by all of the people, namely the Babylonian exile which had ended more than 15 years earlier.

  One very simple reason why all of the seventy years texts refer to one and the same period is the simple fact that they all echo the prohecy of Jeremiah and this is also found in Josephus. Also, such commonalities as 'serving', desolation, exile are the key elements of the seventy years period in short, these texts have a common vocabulary and theme.

  I stand apart from scholars and apostates for the simple reason that I do not share their confusion over the interpretation of the period hence the pseudonym scholar JW

  scholar JW
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  JCanon

  Scholar JW:

  The two references in Zechariah to the seventy years refers to that past historic period as this is the only view that makes sense otherwise you periods all over the place and how could a Jew living then or a person living now have any means of knowing what time period is in question.

  Again, you propagandize a false concept as bad as Carl Jonsson does. JOSEPHUS (remember him?) begins the 70 years with year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar, the last deportation, as does the Bible. The land was not desolate until after the 23rd year as Jeremiah 44:14,28 clearly note the Jews remaining from the sword would return to Judea. This is what Josephus reflects.

  Therefore, the Jews would have still been in exile under Darius the Mede 70 and 72 years after the fall of Jerusalem. Thus there is no conflict.

  The ONLY conflict comes when the Bible is ignored and the 70 weeks prophecy is not dated to 455 BCE, and Josephus and the Bible are not followed first to expand the NB Period by 26 years. The VAT4956 agrees with both the "relative" chronology of the 70-year interval from year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar to the 1st of Cyrus as well as the "absolute" chronology of dating the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE since year 23 falling in 525 BCE means year 37 must likewise fall in 511 BCE.

  Therefore, the Jews still in exile in years 2 and 4 of Darius the Mede makes perfect sense.

  Ezra 6:14,15 is a direct reference to how long Darius I ruled, which was only six years and that Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king when you compare Daniel 11:2. So the Bible does not agree with either the Neo-Babylonian or the Persian Periods. The Witnesses claim that when the Bible and secular chronology contradict, that they always choose the Bible. They do when they redate the 20th of Artaxerxes to 455 BCE from 445 BCE. They attempt to do this to represent the 70 years of sabbath desolation dated from the 1st of Cyrus back to 607 BCE which they date to the fall of Jerusalem, even though the Bible and Josephus start the 70 years with the last deportation. But they ignore the Bible when it comes to dating the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE to fulfill the 70 weeks prophecy, falsely claiming the walls were not rebuilt until the time of Nehemiah when Ezra 4:12 clearly says the walls were "finished" during the reign of "Artaxerxes" (Bardiya-Smerdis). Plus the Bible clearly says there were homes in the city as well, indicating the "city" was rebuilt along with the temple. Thus claiming the "word to go forth to rebuild Jerusalem" was not fulfilled by Cyrus is dubious.

  Martin Anstey, who wrote "The Romance of Bible Chronology," however, was faithful to scripture. He was willing to face the contradiction of 82 years of revised Persian history in order to remain faithful to the Bible and have Cyrus fulfill the 70 weeks prophecy. Now he has been vindicated by the VAT4956, as well as other archaeological research supporting a short rule for Darius I and that Xerxes and Artaxerxes were, indeed, the same king.

  So everything is a mess if you use the uncorrected chronology, or you ignore Josephus' 70 years from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus, that also contradicts the shorter revised NB Period. But when you correct the chronology, everything works out perfectly, even in the distant future since the second coming dated to 1992 based upon 529 BCE is the same year you get when you add 45 years to 1947 to fulfill the "1335 days" prophecy.

  Trying to harmonize the Bible with the revised chronology simply doesn't work. You can't switch-hit and use a secular "pivotal date" that is just as wrong and every other date in the entire timeline and then claim you trust the Bible's history and chronology if the contradiction is too big.

  JC
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  scholar

  JCanon

  Post 3686

  No, Josephus and the Bible agree as to the fact that the seventy years began when the Temple, Jeusalem was destroyed and the land emptied of its inhabitants by the seventh month 607 BCE. Jeremiah 44 simply refers to those Jews who had fled to Egypt to escape the Babylonian armies but they too would not escape. The seventy years did not begin in the 23rd of Neb but in his 18th some five years earlier whereby Neb took Jewish captives not from Judah but from surrounding territories.

  scholar JW
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  JCanon

  Hi scholar. I'm only posting this for other readers and not you since I can see we are misunderstanding each other.

  No, Josephus and the Bible agree as to the fact that the seventy years began when the Temple, Jeusalem was destroyed and the land emptied of its inhabitants by the seventh month 607 BCE. Jeremiah 44 simply refers to those Jews who had fled to Egypt to escape the Babylonian armies but they too would not escape. The seventy years did not begin in the 23rd of Neb but in his 18th some five years earlier whereby Neb took Jewish captives not from Judah but from surrounding territories.

  This is what Antiquities 10.9 says:

  ANT 10.9. the twenty-third of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, he made an expedition against Celesyria; and when he had possessed himself of it, he made war against the Ammonites and Moabites; and when he had brought all these nations under subjection, he fell upon Egypt, in order to overthrow it; and he slew the king that then reigned (16) and set up another; and he took those Jews that were there captives, and led them away to Babylon. And such was the end of the nation of the Hebrews,

  Jeremiah 52:30 says the last deportation was in year 23.

  The Bible calls those who were not killed in Egypt, those who "escaped from the sword" or those who were left remaining from the sword. Further Jer 44:14,28 clearly shows that those who had escaped from the sword in Egypt would return to Judea, few in number.

  14 And there will come to be no escapee or survivor for the remnant of Judah who are entering in to reside there as aliens, in the land of Egypt, even to return to the land of Judah to which they are lifting up their soul[ful desire] to return in order to dwell; for they will not return, except some escaped ones.’”

  28 And as for the ones escaping from the sword, they will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number; and all those of the remnant of Judah, who are coming into the land of Egypt to reside there as aliens, will certainly know whose word comes true, that from me or that from them.”’”

  Note at 2 Chronicles 36:20 that it is the ones remaining from the sword that are deported and are to serve the 70 years:

  20 Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; 21 to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

  So Josephus notes the there were Jews deported from Egypt in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar. The Bible reports there was a 23rd year deportation as well, and notes those deported were those "remaining from the sword" which is a reference to the last remnant of those who had been in Egypt.

  The Bible says that all the Jews who were scattered about had returned to harvest summer crops and says nothing about any Jews scattering after that. The idea that the WTS has about there been Jews in surrounding areas is a presumption and invention by the WTS because they believe they need to have the land totally desolated the same year Jerusalem falls. So they ignore the historical reference of who were deported in year 23. They ignore the last official group of deportees.

  You see, the 70 years of the land paying back its sabbaths is the primary reason for the 70 years. The Jews serving at Babylon was just where they would be while the land lay desolate.

  But, of course, there is a bigger problem here for the JW theory of the land of Judah being empied but not the surrounding area. You see, the ENTIRE LAND had to be desolated, not just Judea. That's why the surrounding city-states like Tyre and Ashkelon were destroyed as well, because they were on the land as well. So BOTH the Northern and Southern kingdoms had to be desolated to pay back the sabbaths. It was not just the land of Judah. Therefore, even if the Jews had scattered about in the surrounding area, the land would not have been desolate and begun to pay back its sabbaths.

  That the entire land of both the northern and southern kingdoms was significant to the 70 years is found in the 390 years for the 10 tribes and the 40 years of error for Judah. That amounts to 39 years for each of the 10 tribes and 40 years for Judah, a total of 430 years. If you divide 430 years by the agricultural sabbaths the Jews were supposed to keep, you get 70 years. There were two kinds of sabbaths; the 7 year sabbaths and the jubilee on the 50th year.

  430/7 = 61.4 430/50=8.6 61.4 + 8.6=70

  That is why Jehovah also had the surrounding nations deported as well since the land would not rest with those nations still present.

  The fact that the mourning for Gedaliah began 2 years after the fall of Jerusalem proves he died in year 20 and thus the Jews were still harvesting crops the next year after the fall of Jerusalem.

  So that's the information. Everybody can interpret it the way they wish.

  ARCHAEOLOGY NOTE: Of note, the Bible says that the destruction of many cities, including Ashkelon would take place, but that their destruction would follow that of Jerusalem. Archaeologists have determined that a period of desolation of Ashkelon, they estimate between 70-80 years occurred which they attribute to Nebuchadnezzar and that destructive level ended with the beginning of the Persian Era. So there is some archaeological support for the Biblical 70 years. This would contradict scholars using the shorter Neo-Babylonian Period if you follow the Bible that says Ashkelon was destroyed after Jerusalem was. Right now archaeologists date the destruction earlier during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar 2.

  JCanon