Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed

by White Dove 74 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Now, given that Roman historians were so meticulous in their record keeping, it has to be asked as an example, why an event that according to the Bible resulted in the masscre of hundreds of newly born children throughout Jerusalem and its surrounding areas is not in these records. It would have been if it had happened. The Romans were very superstitious. Another example. When, according to the Bible Christ was crucified, their were various supernatural phenomena that accompanied this event which are not noted in the records.

    You mean Bethlehem don't you? Perhaps only a dozen or more were killed since Bethlehem was such a small, insiginificant place?

    The Romans were contemptuous of any and all things not Roman, so why would they have recorded anything concerning the despised Jews?

    Besides, Rome had too many problems with its expansion program to be unduly preoccupied with the Jews in Palestine. For instance, when Arminius or Hermann destroyed three! of Rome's famed legions in the Battle of Teutoberg Forest, Jesus would have been a teenager.

    I ask again, why would Roman historians have been concerned with Jesus at all?

    Sylvia

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Snowbird,

    You mean Bethlehem don't you? Perhaps only a dozen or more were killed since Bethlehem was such a small, insiginificant place?

    Yes, my bad. I meant Jerusalem where the edict was pronounced by Herod against the children in Bethlehem and ENVIRONS. You are speculating on a figure to suit your needs, I am not. The Bible paints this as a significant slaughter which would have resounded among the society of the day and most certainly would have made the Roman annals.

    The Romans were contemptuous of any and all things not Roman, so why would they have recorded anything concerning the despised Jews?

    You need to study history in a little more detail. The Romans were actually NOT contemptous of 'any and all things Roman'. I have no idea where that statement came from. The Roman Empire was actually very tolerant of other peoples, and especially their religion, not due to philanthropy but due to practicality. The Empire was huge and the amount of Romans relaitvely small. That is why they created Vassal States of which Palestine was one. The Romans tolerated the religion of both Jews and Christians, and only when it was viewed as a threat to the Republic was any action taken against them. A recommended read is 'Religious Persecution In Ancient Rome' by Simeon Gutterman on this subject.

    The Romans recorded everything that happened in its Empire including Palestine is great detail, as I have already noted. Do some research on the matter, you will find it interesting.

    Besides, Rome had too many problems with its expansion program to be unduly preoccupied with the Jews in Palestine. For instance, when Arminius or Hermann destroyed three! of Rome's famed legions in the Battle of Teutoberg Forest, Jesus would have been a teenager.

    This is not actually accurate regarding Palestine, which was viewed as an unimportant outpost of the Empire, a sort of Siberia in the Middle East. In fact Pontius Pilate was sent there in 'exile' for upsetting the Senate. Palestine was a thorn in Roman sides, but only a small one. Very small as compared to the Teutons who were the focus of Roman paranoia.

    The Teutons were indeed a huge problem to the Romans, but that was on the European theatre and played no part in Palestinian aspirations at all. In fact it was Romes uneccessary fixation with the roaming Teutons that eventually undermined its military morale.

    I ask again, why would Roman historians have been concerned with Jesus at all?

    We are interested in finding out whether the BIBLICAL Jesus existed,. There are numerous alleged supernatural events which took place throughout Israel that were they credible, would certainly have been included in the pages of the Roman historians and journalists of the day. I have noted two such ones in my first post. For example Josephus makes notation of the death of Herod's own children at his hands, together with numerous other minor and major outrages against other people, many of them 'ordinary'. Yet no mention is made of the slaughter in Bethlehem.

    HS

  • snowbird
    snowbird
    We are interested in finding out whether the BIBLICAL Jesus existed,. There are numerous alleged supernatural events which took place throughout Israel that were they credible, would certainly have been included in the pages of the Roman historians and journalists of the day

    One of those supernatural events is the account of His resurrection when some of the guards stationed at His tomb either fainted or fled in terror at the appearance of the angel.

    The Jewish hierarchy bribed them to say that the disciples stole the body, and assured them that matters would be smoothed over with Pilate. Bet you won't find that in the Roman annals.

    Note please, that I didn't say the Romans were intolerant; I said they were contemptuous of any and every thing not Roman.

    Sylvia

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    One of those supernatural events is the account of His resurrection when some of the guards stationed at His tomb either fainted or fled in terror at the appearance of the angel.

    The Jewish hierarchy bribed them to say that the disciples stole the body, and assured them that matters would be smoothed over with Pilate. Bet you won't find that in the Roman annals.

    Lol, no. You don't find that either in the Gospels except one (Matthew), along with the description of the general resurrection of the saints who then entered the city and were seen by many... too unremarkable events to be noticed by the other Evangelists, I suppose...

  • snowbird
    snowbird
    Lol, no. You don't find that either in the Gospels except one (Matthew), along with the description of the general resurrection of the saints who then entered the city and were seen by many... too unremarkable events to be noticed by the other Evangelists, I suppose...

    John 21: 24 This is the same disciple who was eyewitness to all these things and wrote them down. And we all know that his eyewitness account is reliable and accurate.

    25 There are so many other things Jesus did. If they were all written down, each of them, one by one, I can't imagine a world big enough to hold such a library of books.



    Apparently those events were just some of the many that attended Jesus as attested to by the account above from The Message Bible.

    Sylvia

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    :Please give me non-Biblical and non-shroud of Turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Jesus of the Bible walked the earth.


    I saw his picture on a milk carton last week. Honest. So he must exist, except he's been lost. I've never been lied to by a milk carton.


    Farkel

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR
    Non sequitur. Even if the passage were original to Josephus the very mention of a Christian group would imply an awareness of this group (remember Josephus was contemporary to the Christian community, not Jesus) and its foundational narrative. All the author would have to do is selecting from this source and rephrasing it from a "non-believer" perspective (btw, all the conjecture about a partial interpolation rests on the subjective assessment of what a "non-believer" would be likely to retain from the Christian narrative). In any case it would still not stand as an independent witness to a historical Jesus (and, as I said, this applies a fortiori to 2nd-century Roman writers).

    Let me make sure that I understand what you are saying. Josephus used non-Christian terminology in order to appear neutral? If that is the case then I guess there are no ancient written histories that can be trusted. Sorry, but I cannot stoop to that level of skepticism.

  • Terry
    Terry

    In all seriousness the one thing that makes me believe that he existed is the year. Why would our years be based upon a man that never existed. I am not saying Jesus is God or God's son, but he must have been an important man to have the calender based upon him.

    Paul

    Are you serious?

    The days of the week are named after various gods like Saturn for Saturday and Thor for Thursday. Does that convince you they were real as well? Planets like Mars are named after the god of war, does that make Mars a real god?

    I have to believe you were joking.

    Please tell me you were.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Snowbird,

    Note please, that I didn't say the Romans were intolerant; I said they were contemptuous of any and every thing not Roman.

    Well, you are wrong about that whether you use the word 'toleration' or 'contempt'. That is the point.

    The Romans, like the Celts were well known for their ability to adopt without shame facets of the nations they conquered, both socially or religiously. What they were truly 'contempous' (intolerant) of was any belief system, political thinking or social disturbance that would in any way threaten the Republic.

    One of those supernatural events is the account of His resurrection when some of the guards stationed at His tomb either fainted or fled in terror at the appearance of the angel. The Jewish hierarchy bribed them to say that the disciples stole the body, and assured them that matters would be smoothed over with Pilate. Bet you won't find that in the Roman annals.

    No, you find it in the Bible, where it is purported that a man allegedly defied gravity by walking on water, allegedly, on more than one occasion ressurected the dead in front of a huge funeral party, allegedly healed the blind, lame and deaf throughout the whole of Palestine, allegedly fed thousands of people by miraculously multiplying some bread and fish that he had, allegedly turned water into wine in front of dozens of wedding guests, allegedly ascended into heaven with numerous people present, whose death allegedly caused earthquakes and an eclipse. etc. etc.

    None of the above appeared in any of the Roman Annals either. The point is though, that they should have as they were the kind of events that would have been discussed throughout the land.

    HS

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore
    In all seriousness the one thing that makes me believe that he existed is the year. Why would our years be based upon a man that never existed.

    For the same reason that our weekdays are named after the gods Saturn, Sunna, Mani, Tyr, Woden, Thunor and Frige.

    Would it help if you knew that the Gregorian calander wasn't introduced until the 1500s?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.C.E#Origins

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