why i disbelieve

by inkling 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • inkling
    inkling

    The following is a response to a JW friend who still occasionally tries to save my soul, or at least understand it.

    His questions are in italics.

    I have not yet sent this email.

    ========================= What exactly is it that makes you disbelieve there's a God, or makes you unsure he exists? I think a more sensical question is what makes you so sure he does? When debating the existence of something invisible, the burden of proof rests solidly on the shoulders of the believer. What gives you the idea that there is a invisible magic sky being that is watching your every move, listening to you talk to yourself, occasionally mucking around with peoples lives,once in a great while bringing them back from the dead, and all the rest of the time letting them suffer in agony in peace? That he waits thousands of years, and then swoops down and offers a list of 10 things not to do to a roaming nomadic tribe, and a heap of other laws involving the pointless slaughter of innocent animals to appease his apparent demand for shed blood?

    The reasoning that such bloodlust was a foreshadowing the day where he
    would accept the suicide of his son as payment for the sins of minds
    that he designed simply makes the whole thing even more disturbing and
    implausible to me. (It does however make perfect sense when you compare
    it with the recurring human superstitions throughout time... The Aztecs also atoned for their sins with human blood, as did the tribes surrounding the Israelites) The idea of God that is presented in the Bible strikes me as such a vastly improbable character that a claim of his actual existence and the reality of his interactions with people thousands of years ago would need to be accompanied by REALLY good evidence. I see none. Now if you want you can back off and say that "oddly enough we live in an orderly universe, and that demands an explanation". I agree. I just think that inventing a
    god in our own image to explain how we got here doesn't GET us anywhere. Who created God? If we allow that an orderly god could always have existed, then
    why can't an orderly universe always have existed? The bottom line is we simply
    don't KNOW what was before the big bang, or outside the universe. That information
    is inaccessible at the moment, and to attempt to "solve" the greatest mystery of all
    time by appealing to ancient bronze age mythology is doing nothing but relabeling
    our ignorance. What don't you see in this universe that you would expect to find in a universe with a God? Justice Life is unfair. Life does NOT consistently reward goodness or love or peace. A universe inhabited by
    a god that often steps in and answers OTHER people's prayers while letting a child step on a land
    mine is not a universe that makes sense. The only way believers can reconcile this is that things
    USED to be perfect, or that he will FIX things, make everything better, in some FUTURE life. I see no
    evidence for either of those things, so I must conclude that we live in a intrinsically dispassionate
    universe, and anything else is most likely wishful thinking. Evidence of the "supernatural" If God and angels live in a "spirit" realm that has, does, and will have any sort of effect on this realm, we should find solid evidence that such "magic" is real. I have never encountered even a single compelling piece of evidence that there is any truth to superstitious belief in angels, or demons, or ghosts, or prophecies, or telekinesis, or anything else that flies in the face of the basic rules of the universe (At least on a macro level. Quantum stuff get pretty weird, but that doesn't seem to cross over into the big world) Therefore, I must conclude that the universe tends to follow it's own rules, and things such as virgin births and walking on water and raising on the dead are to be considered impossible until proven with very compelling evidence. More intelligently designed creation 99% of all species that have ever lived have gone extinct because they failed to make a living in the world. This was all millions of years before humans were around, so you can't exactly blame Adam's sin for screwing everything up. There are fossils of dinosaurs with brain cancer and arthritis. Prehistoric fish brutally tore each other apart in order to survive. I would expect a universe made by a god of love to invent something a little less cruel and gory. Why create a universe so "broken" (full of pain and death), only to "fix" it (turn it into a paradise with straw-eating lions) after spending millions of years watching the pain you intentionally designed? What would God need to do to prove his existence to you?Verifiable evidence.

    This would include hundreds of things that supposedly happened ALL THE TIME in Bible
    times! Seeing someone walk on water after all method of cheating is ruled out? Hearing a
    voice from heaven that a whole group of sane people also hear? One regrown limb? One
    unaccountable prophecy?

    Without the demand for evidence, what makes us different from the Aztecs spilling blood
    so the sun will return? Or faithful Muslims flying a plane into a building because their
    religious leaders asked them to? Demanding evidence for belief is the only way to protect
    ourselves from our deadly inborn tendency to be misled by the weirdness of the world.

    Thousands of people in the past (according to the Bible) were offered just such evidence,
    and it didn't violate their free will, or screw up God's plan. Why do we today get nothing
    but 17th hand information traced back to a world populated by highly credulous and
    superstitious people?

    If there is a god, all I am asking for is concrete proof that he cares about the mess he
    has made.

    =================== [inkling]

  • Velvetann
    Velvetann
    What would God need to do to prove his existence to you?Verifiable evidence.

    This would include hundreds of things that supposedly happened ALL THE TIME in Bible
    times! Seeing someone walk on water after all method of cheating is ruled out? Hearing a
    voice from heaven that a whole group of sane people also hear? One regrown limb? One
    unaccountable prophecy?

    Without the demand for evidence, what makes us different from the Aztecs spilling blood
    so the sun will return? Or faithful Muslims flying a plane into a building because their
    religious leaders asked them to? Demanding evidence for belief is the only way to protect
    ourselves from our deadly inborn tendency to be misled by the weirdness of the world.

    Thousands of people in the past (according to the Bible) were offered just such evidence,
    and it didn't violate their free will, or screw up God's plan. Why do we today get nothing
    but 17th hand information traced back to a world populated by highly credulous and
    superstitious people?

    If there is a god, all I am asking for is concrete proof that he cares about the mess he
    has made.

    AMEN TO THIS. My thoughts exactly.

    Velvet

  • trevor
    trevor
    If there is a god, all I am asking for is concrete proof that he cares about the mess he has made.

    I have an inkling that you are not totally certain that there is no god?

  • Velvetann
    Velvetann

    I came to HATE religion after being brought up in that whole JW fiasco for years. I said to myself I would rather die at Armageddon than have to live like this with a God that has so many rules and NoNo's. A life of being a puppet or robot.

    I never even thought about God for years and didn't want to. Now for some reason I often think about it and I just don't know who God is and what he wants from us. Its just to confusing, and why does he make us solve a big puzzle of the Bible to find out who he is and what he wants. Then of course there is the other religions who believe God is someone else than the Christian God. Their God has different agendas.

    I personally think with all the confusion going on and so many different opinions if there is a God who cares for us in this tiny planet then he should give us instructions by means of a miracle that all can see. If he doesn't do that then I don't know what direction to go. So all I can do for now is just try and be a good person and live my life.

    I cannot base my beliefs and life on Faith, we have all seen what that does for you. Gets you killed or you die without a reward or answer to all the years you put into the faith of God you had.

    Velvet

  • inkling
    inkling
    I have an inkling that you are not totally certain that there is no god?

    Correct. Being certain of the NONexistence of something is illogical.

    Still, until good reason is encountered, I default to disbelief, as most
    of us do when asked about the existence of say, fire breathing dragons.

    [inkling]

  • aSphereisnotaCircle
    aSphereisnotaCircle

    Those are exactly my reasons for disbelieving.

    You can analize and interpret scripture all you want. But if you just step back and look at the big picture, it just makes no sense at all.

    You said this all very succinctly, I'm printing it out. Thank you

  • Eyes Open
    Eyes Open

    Logical enough, and nicely written.

    One mistake spotted:

    The reasoning that such bloodlust was a foreshadowing of the day...

  • inkling
    inkling
    One mistake spotted:

    Doh! Foiled by a typo.

    thx

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    Good answers Ink...

    But you do believe in Santa, right? After all, aren't all the gifts proof that he and the elves exist?

    ... Uh, just ignore the millions of poor and needy kids that get jack-squat from St. Nick. I think that maybe Satan steals their presents.

    B the X

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    Excellent thread and answers, Inkling.

    I think you're a goner.

    (In your friend's eyes.)

    ;-)

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