Revelation Teaches Jesus is God

by JosephAlward 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    I understand that Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus is not God, but the author of Revelation seems to teach otherwise:

    Yahweh speaking:

    "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God" (Revelation 1:8)
    More Yahweh:
    "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (Revelation 22:13)
    Jesus speaking:
    "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! (Revelation 1:17-18)
    So, here we have the First and the Last, dead once, now alive. Who else could it be, but Jesus, who was killed, then resurrected to life? Thus, Jesus became God, the one who is the Alpha and Omega of all things, according to John.

    Are there any Witnesses on this forum who will say it's not so?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Anytime I have mentioned this,
    the person I am talking to gets a shocked look on their face like its a brand new passage in the bible that has just been added
    then they ask if I am humble enough to accept the truth
    then there is a story about how in THIS instance it means the first and last Adam.
    Ooooohhhh, now I get it, thanks

  • accuracy
    accuracy

    But note that Yahweh didn't say "I was dead but am now alive."

    One can be "first and last" in more ways than one.

    More than one person can be "first and last," depending on the situation.

    Nothing in the book of Revelation says that Jesus is God. Rather, in Revelation, Jesus is spoken of as having a God.

    Jesus is not even portrayed as the originator of the Revelation; it was something "which God gave unto him."

    Is this supposed to be a serious thread, or a joke?

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    >>But note that Yahweh didn't say "I was dead but am now alive."

    >>One can be "first and last" in more ways than one.

    Yes. Thank-you for that insightful observation. 99% of the challenges to so-called contractions in scripture are based upon inadequate understanding of Biblical style or translation issues.

    In this case, therefore, if we presume that God and Jesus are Father and Son and yet are both the "first and last", then that would suggest they share this "first and last" definition INDIVIDUALLY. But what could it mean? It sounds so grandiose in English, especially when they don't really have a good understanding of it and they say the "alpha" and the "omega" in English instead of the correct translation which would be the "A" and "Z".

    ACTUAL EXPLANATION: So what does it mean when you're the A and Z of something, or the "beginning and end" of something? Simply that you're unique! Can that be said of Yahweh and Yeshua? YES! That's because God is unique being the only being not to have a beginning or an end, to be from everlastsing to everlasting. And Jesus is unique since he is the only creature directly created by God. He's the "only-begotton" son. So as far as spirit beings/creatures go, God is unique and Jesus is unique. They are the beginning and end of their "kind" or category.

    So the designation of being the "alpha and omega" in the context of that culture would simply indicate that you were unique, the beginning and end of your kind which is equally applicable to both the Creator and the first-born son.

    So again, Mr. Joseph Alward's problem comes from lack of insight and imagination. He sees a corner when really there is a beautiful curve.

    But he's fun because he gets comments on various Bible topics which aren't brought up much. So I hope he keeps posting Biblical "errancy" issues which he probably just gets out of some book which came up with a lot of ill-applied errors to distract the unlearned.

    Thanks Joseph!

    LG

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    In Revelation 22:13 Jesus clearly identifies himself as the Alpha and the Omega. It's worth reading the New World Translation and trying to follow the bizarre system of punctuation they use to try to deny this.

    --
    Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit attrocities - Voltaire

  • accuracy
    accuracy

    I can't take seriously a thread on Jesus theology by Joe, since he has spent much time attempting to "prove" that Jesus is only a myth, and didn't really exist.

    But larsguy made excellent points. Also, he does not commit the inconsistency of merely using "Jesus" with "Yahweh." Consistency requires using Yeshua with Yahweh. If you're going to be Hebrew about it, be Hebrew.

    funkyderek, Jesus identifies himself as the speaker at Revelation 22:16. But no speaker is identified at 22:13. The last speaker identified before that is "the angel" (verse 8). Theological presupposition might say that it is Jesus who speaks at 22:13, but the Greek text does not. In the King James Version, Revelation 22:13 is written in red, but again, this is theological presupposition, since the Greek text makes no such distinction. Even so, "Alpha and Omega," the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, mean the same as "the first and the last," and as larsguy's post points out, this in itself is not limited, as a reference, to Jesus.

    In Revelation, Jesus is called "the beginning of the creation of God" (3:14 KJV, NASB, etc.) That is consistent with the rest of the New Testament.

  • Kent
    Kent

    I was just sitting watching new paint drying at the wall. I find that extremely much more interesting than endless discussion about what loser is god!

    Yachyd Da

    Kent

    I need the new KM's as they come! Please send me scans!

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    http://watchtower.observer.org

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    funkyderek, Jesus identifies himself as the speaker at Revelation 22:16. But no speaker is identified at 22:13.

    No, but the speaker in verse 13 begins with "Look! I am coming soon!" In verse 20, it is clear that the one "coming soon" is Jesus. There is no mention of Jehovah in this chapter (even in the NWT). The only other person speaking is the angel (Jesus' angel according to verse 16).

    --
    Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit attrocities - Voltaire

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Accuracy,

    What an inappropriate name. The poponderance of Scripture points to the divinity of Jesus Christ. If one claims the bible as it's guide, to deny the divinity of Christ is to ignore large sections of scripture. The society has to do some serious scriptural gymnastics to make their interps work.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • Kent
    Kent
    No, but the speaker in verse 13 begins with "Look! I am coming soon!"

    Well, the speaker had women visitors - so what?

    Yachyd Da

    Kent

    I need the new KM's as they come! Please send me scans!

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    http://watchtower.observer.org

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit