Evolutionists Creator "Deity" Under Scrutiny

by hooberus 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Because of the complexity of the creaton, everyone believes in a "creator".

    Creationists believe that this creator is the God of the Bible. (which evolutiuonists criticize as an unscientific "God did it" explanation).

    Evolutionists believe that the creator is a process called "natural selection." Darwin himself at least once even referred to it as “my deity ‘Natural Selection,'” "Natural selection" has even in effect became a "God did it" type phrase for evolutionists [i.e. "Natural selection did it !"], as it is invoked as "the explanation" for every complex thing found in nature, and as any perceived inadequacy, or scientific argument against in it is attributed to a failure of our imaginatiion and not a failure of natural selctions "powerful" abilities.

    The following are some resources (both available from www.creationresearch.org ) that examine in debth this evolutionary "deity" and probe whether it is an adequate scientific explanantion for every thing that we see.

    The book "The Biotic Message" has excellent teatments on evolutionists arguments.

    http://saintpaulscience.com/contents.htm
    1. Evolution vs. the Biotic Message
    • Introduces the issues and major themes of the book
      • Evolutionists do not fully understand their own theory and its incredible flexibility.
      • Evolutionary theory is a structureless smorgasbord.
      • Many evolutionary illusions are created by evolutionists remaining silent on key issues.
    • Introduces a new creationist theory — Message Theory — to replace evolution.
    • Introduces the argument from imperfection — Stephen Gould's "Panda Principle" — and gives the first of several key reasons to overturn it. Unordinary designs (so called "imperfect" designs) are the expected result of a designer who is sending a message. They also form a unique style, which, like handwriting, allows us to identify that life had only one author.
    2. Naturalism vs. Science
    • Covers issues in the philosophy of science.
    • Explains the difference between scientific and non-scientific theories, particularly the key role of testability.
    • Documents that evolutionists themselves have thoroughly endorsed testability as the criterion of science in all the key creation/evolution court cases.

      The book later argues that evolution is not science — using the evolutionist's own criterion of testability. Some evolutionary leaders are quoted essentially admitting that. The book argues that the new creation theory is testable science, and evolution is not. This role reversal is noteworthy since it engages the debate on the evolutionists' terms using their own criterion of science. It is also a departure from previous creationist positions.

    • Debunks the evolutionists' attempts to define creation out of science:
      • Identifies cases where evolutionists use a double standard — one standard for creation theory, and a lesser one for evolution.
      • Shows that theories involving an intelligent designer are already accepted by evolutionists as testable science. Therefore, evolutionists cannot claim such theories are inherently unscientific.
      • Debunks the evolutionist's assault on the argument from design. Shows that the argument from design can be thoroughly convincing. For example, we often show that someone's death was not accidental, that it was designed — and we show it so compellingly that we execute the 'designer'.
      • Shows that some statements about the supernatural can be testable science. The key is that science must remain self-consistent, it cannot be allowed to contradict itself, and this sometimes forces us to accept some element of the supernatural. Gödel's Theorem (from the logic of mathematics) is discussed as a precedent setting example. This is a contribution to the wider philosophy of science as well as the origins debate.
      • Shows the anthropic principle is not testable, and so not science by evolutionists' own criterion. It reveals an illusion involving a three-shell game ruse, much like is later revealed for natural selection.
    3. The Origin of Life
    • Traces the downfall of naturalistic origin-of-life theories, including the recent setbacks on the Earth's "primitive atmosphere" and "primordial soup".
    • Debunks the evolutionist's misuses of probability.
    • "Biologic universals" at the biochemical level have often been claimed as major evidence for evolution. That notion is debunked by showing that evolutionists have been forced (by the data) to reject all known biologic universals from the first conceivable life forms — biologic universals are not even remotely predicted by evolution, and make better evidence against it than for it.


    T he next three chapters examine natural selection, each one exploring successively deeper layers of evolutionary illusion.

    4. Survival of the Fittest
      Evolutionists create the illusion that natural selection is a testable theory, and the illusion begins at the most fundamental level — at survival of the fittest. This chapter reveals the ruse behind the theory. Like a three-shell game at the carnival, evolutionists shift their theory back-and-forth, to evade whichever single line of criticism you naively point to. The classic tautology (shown to popular audiences by Norman Macbeth and Tom Bethell many years ago) is merely one 'shell' of several. This chapter documents all the shells and moves, and shows how evolutionists use the ruse to maximal effect.
    5. Inventive Natural Selection
      The 'survival of the fittest' three-shell game is only the most basic illusion. This chapter reveals additional levels of intrigue (and untestability) in the evolutionist's central theory. The three-shell game applies at many levels, and even between levels, and even requires the active participation of harmful processes. This chapter dismantles inventive natural selection, to show it is without structure, and is not a testable theory.
    6. Darwinian Scenarios

      Since natural selection theory is structureless, its proponents tell all manner of stories, called "Darwinian scenarios". Many examples of contradictory stories are examined here.

      For example, no multicellular animals make the enzymes necessary to digest cellulose, yet it is perhaps the world's most abundant food source. Evolutionists claim this is "bad" design and use it as evidence against a designer. This chapter shows they have it backwards. In reality, the cellulose situation is strong evidence against evolution, and fits well with the claim that a key goal of life's design is to thwart evolutionary explanation. Moreover, the situation is good system design, because it brings ecological stability to the system of life. Natural selection can only benefit the individual or perhaps small groups, but cannot look ahead to benefit the entire system of life. Like so many in this book, this argument is new.

    The book "Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Human Genome" reviewed here:

    http://creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_1/j21_1_43-47.pdf

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    bttt

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore
    "Natural selection" has even in effect became a "God did it" type phrase for evolutionists [i.e. "Natural selection did it !"], as it is invoked as "the explanation" for every complex thing found in nature,

    Big difference, a theist will say "God did it, and we can't know how"

    A scientist will say: "Natural selection did it, and here is the mechanism and step by step process in which it happened." Or at the very least: "Let's keep looking."

    For example the formation of the eye, it's not like scientists just say: "Natural selection did it." But they detail the individual steps that took place and causes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUOpaFVgKPw

    What's the creationist response to the creation of the eye: "God did it" How? "Magic!"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_QcEudi87I

    That just seems like a notable difference to me.

  • OtisBarker
    OtisBarker

    Evolution, good.

    Creation, bad.

    No god, good.

    Presence of god, bad.

    It feels good to feels bad.

    Vote democrat.

    Otis

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    What's the creationist response to the creation of the eye: "God did it" How? "Magic!"

    That just seems like a notable difference to me.

    Really?, and I though thought that the creationist response was something like this:

    http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1855

    http://www.creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/tj/j15_3/j15_3_92-99.pdf

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Previous links are a creationist response to Dawkins claims.

    For specific creationist reasons for evidence for the creation of the eyes (and other complex design features) see: http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/3060/

  • PEC
    PEC

    What are creationist going to say, when life is found, off this planet?

    Philip

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore
    What's the creationist response to the creation of the eye: "God did it" How? "Magic!"

    That just seems like a notable difference to me.

    Really?, and I though thought that the creationist response was something like this:

    And where in those links does it describe the mechanism by which god created the eye?

    I can't find any mention of just HOW god went about creating the eye.

  • Hope4Others
    Hope4Others

    Infomercial or What?

    Evolution, good.

    Creation, bad.

    No god, good.

    Presence of god, bad.

    It feels good to feels bad.

    Vote democrat.

    Otis

    I've seen your little ad everywhere I go....Tee hee hee h4o

  • inrainbows
    inrainbows

    Creationists will just say 'god did it' if they find life off Earth. They will say that as the Bible doesn't say about creation off Earth obviously it doesn't mean that life wasn't created off Earth.

    But this is standard Creationistic claptrap;

    Evolutionists do not fully understand their own theory and its incredible flexibility.

    As the theory is in development and subject to change as more evidence is uncovered (unlike Creationism which is static at 'god did it'), it could be said that the theory is not fully understood but this does not mean it is invalid. Some aspects of physics are not clearly understood but predictions can be made accurately based upon the understanding that we do have.

    Evolutionary theory is a structureless smorgasbord.

    This is a lie.

    Many evolutionary illusions are created by evolutionists remaining silent on key issues.

    I challange the poster to provide examples so I can show this is a lie.

    Introduces a new creationist theory — Message Theory — to replace evolution.

    Message theory is not a theory. I challange the poster to prove otherwise.

    Introduces the argument from imperfection — Stephen Gould's "Panda Principle" — and gives the first of several key reasons to overturn it. Unordinary designs (so called "imperfect" designs) are the expected result of a designer who is sending a message. They also form a unique style, which, like handwriting, allows us to identify that life had only one author.

    Explains the difference between scientific and non-scientific theories, particularly the key role of testability.
    Documents that evolutionists themselves have thoroughly endorsed testability as the criterion of science in all the key creation/evolution court cases.

    Interesting it does this as Creationist theory is untestable.

    The book later argues that evolution is not science — using the evolutionist's own criterion of testability.

    As evolution is documentable both in the past to reasonable standards of evidence and in the present according to expected observability in available time scales, this is a lie.

    Some evolutionary leaders are quoted essentially admitting that. The book argues that the new creation theory is testable science, and evolution is not.

    Examples please so I can show how this is a misrepresentation.

    Debunks the evolutionists' attempts to define creation out of science:
    Identifies cases where evolutionists use a double standard — one standard for creation theory, and a lesser one for evolution.

    Give a couple of examples so I can show their vacuosity.

    Shows that theories involving an intelligent designer are already accepted by evolutionists as testable science. Therefore, evolutionists cannot claim such theories are inherently unscientific.

    Debunks the evolutionist's assault on the argument from design. Shows that the argument from design can be thoroughly convincing. For example, we often show that someone's death was not accidental, that it was designed — and we show it so compellingly that we execute the 'designer'.

    And who designed the designer remains the flaw in both Creationism and ID as the only way they can avoid this is by special pleading.

    Shows that some statements about the supernatural can be testable science.

    Yes; there is no proof of the supernatural; this can be tested quite easily and proven to be true.

    Shows the anthropic principle is not testable, and so not science by evolutionists' own criterion.

    So funny! By definition it is untestable. It is a logical argument not a scientific theory. Doesn't mean it isn't true.

    Traces the downfall of naturalistic origin-of-life theories, including the recent setbacks on the Earth's "primitive atmosphere" and "primordial soup".
    Debunks the evolutionist's misuses of probability.
    "Biologic universals" at the biochemical level have often been claimed as major evidence for evolution. That notion is debunked by showing that evolutionists have been forced (by the data) to reject all known biologic universals from the first conceivable life forms — biologic universals are not even remotely predicted by evolution, and make better evidence against it than for it.

    This is so dishonest I encourage anyone to do a search for 'biological universals evolution' and see how this is essentially a straw man argument.

    Creationism and ID only exist in oppostion to established scientific theory. They can only explain themselves in contrast to evolution as they themselves have no theory or proof. They cannot exist apart as theories as they do not have the substance of theory to exist inn their own right.

    Instead of trying to prove ID or Creatonism (which cannot be done), as per normal this is a weak Creationist attack on evolution that will chiefly impress those who do not have science background and are already inclined to believe in 'designer based' belief systems, just like those who get duped by pyramid selling schemes are chiefly those who do not have financial backgrounds and who are inclined to be impressed by ideas you can get rich easy.

    And as per normal is shows the remarkable lack of faith demonstrated by such literalists in their attacks on science. It is beyond the megre ability of the average Creationist or IDer that god might be clever enough to have started the whole Universe rolling and have it ended up the way it intended without having to use any act of special creation or design.

    Of course, this clinging to literlism is the key reason this is such an issue. If you insist on holy-book literalism when it comes to science they holy book literalism on belief and morals is easy, and totalitarianistic belief structure become possible.

    This loses sight of the possibility that 'god' may well be love, and totalitarianism and love have NOTHING to do with each other

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