by a Christian 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Criterium is correct in this case, both both Barsabbas and Matthias both met the criterium and were were able to do the uphill 5km to the Jerusalem gates, but the thorn in Paul's flesh prevented him from joining. Paul learned correctly from this unfortunate incident hence his teaching "know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain."
BTS
Thats is a very astute observation Burntheships!
"this one is an instrument/vessel of choice to me". A pretty impersonal wording, stressing the quality of the "instrument" in view of a certain task ("bearing my name...") rather than the idea of personal choice by Jesus. So you will need to stretch your point yet a little more, but I'm sure you can do it.
Narkissos,
Even your own interpretation of the Greek text proves my point. Jesus chose Saul/Paul His instrument/vessel or whatever else you care to call him but this still made him an Apostle of Christ as this tool this instrument/vessel was human. What else would that be other than an Apostle appointed by the personal choice by Jesus which makes him Jesus' 12th selection? Other translations confirm. All we have from you is your insistence that the words mean something else. Well here is what I know to be the truth:
1Co 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Peter knew all this and agreed with Paul’s writings: So we have confirmation from Peter as well who identified himself in a similar way..
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
So Peter said: 2 Per 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
That is real proof. This is real evidence that your views are unsupported and unscriptural. You may not like Paul or believe his writings but Peter did. He had wisdom given him we are taught and only they that are unlearned and unstable wrest with it. This also goes with a warning so I will leave it at that.
As to your criterium, that was a revelation by Luke of the problem and their wrong thinking that led them to draw lots. Jesus corrected this problem which corrected their wrong thinking as well.
Joseph
Thank you Rapunzel, I might never have checked this one.
JMalik, nothing from the book of Acts?
Btw I do enjoy many aspects of Pauline thought, and I agree that Paul does claim apostleship in a very strong yet paradoxical way (and it is certainly claimed for him in post-Pauline literature, e.g. Ephesians and the Pastorals). But (1) the letters ascribed to Paul never make him one of the Twelve, even though his authority is viewed as equal if not superior to theirs; (2) the perspective of Acts is fairly different.
Which makes me think that perhaps the status of Paul in Acts is, in itself, another indirect witness to the principle of "Apostolic succession" -- although not exactly in the Roman Catholic understanding: for Paul is not an "apostle" in the sense of the "Twelve," he belongs to a "later generation" (from the standpoint of the Christian narrative), yet he is gradually (from chapter 13 onward, with the exception of chapter 15) vested with an authority similar to that of Peter after him (similar discourses, miracles, etc.).
The term "the Twelve" seems to have been reserved to the group of original apostles. Paul was not part of the original group of apostles. He had not lived with Christ as the others, but like them he saw the Risen Christ. His entry into the apostolic office was not "normal." as 1 Cor. 15:8 shows. Nevertheless, he views himself as an apostle on an equal footing to "the Twelve." But, I would not say that he considers himself a part of "the Twelve."
But, I would not say that he considers himself a part of "the Twelve."
Kenneson,
Why not? Jesus did not choose Matthias. No! Matthias was chosen by men. And Galatians considered material that appeared also in Acts such as the meeting over circumcision and guess what else? The choosing of an Apostle by men. So it says; 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) And in such discussions not only what happened but the corrections that were made as a result were discussed in Galatians the way Paul does here, quickly, simply and to the point.
Joseph
Paul began his ministry apart from the Twelve and when he went to Jerusalem 3 years later it was only to visit Peter for 15 days. Gal.1:19 says he didn't see any of the apostles--except for James, the brother of the Lord. See also Matt. 13:55. This James is not one of the original Twelve because he is not the son of Alphaeus nor of Zebedee. (Matt. 10:2-4) As a matter of fact, he was not a believer in Jesus until the Resurrection (John 7:5I) Yet, he is certainly a part of the apostolic band. See Acts 1:14 And Paul also identifies him with the apostles in Gal. 1:19. James is certainly prominent in the Jerusalem church ( Act 15:13) Fourteen years later Paul visits Jerusalem again due to a revelation. And it seems to be here that he encounters all the Twelve. The pillars of the church (Peter, John and James, the brother of the Lord) accept Paul and confirm Paul and Barnabas's ministry. So, for 17 years Paul has been doing his own thing and except for this brief exchange with the Apostles, will be doing his own thing again. It seems to me that this is an attempt by Paul to make himself on a par with the Apostles, but that does not make him one of the Twelve since he doesn't stay with them and is off on his own again.
Reconciling Acts and Galatians can only be done by reading way too much into both.
In Acts 9, Paul goes directly from Damascus to Jerusalem where he does meet the apostles (v. 27).
Nark,
Yes, I see your point. Acts has him meeting the Apostles much earlier than Gal. But, do you think he hung around the Apostles very long or long enough for them to accept him as one of the Twelve?
But, do you think he hung around the Apostles very long or long enough for them to accept him as one of the Twelve?
According to the narrative in Acts he had more than a single encounter with them, since after the "introduction" meeting "he was going in and out with them (met'autôn) in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord" (v. 28). This too is definitely different from the story in Galatians 1:18f where the only apostle Paul meets is Cephas (although the Greek wording allows for the possibility that James is also considered an apostle, although not of the Twelve; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:5,7 which I mentioned previously, where Cephas is connected to the Twelve and James to the "apostles").
But, as far as the book of Acts is concerned, the fact remains that there is no hint to their 'accepting him as one of the Twelve'. (And Paul doesn't claim that either.)
