Apostolic Succession ?

by a Christian 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    James C,

    You wrote: The belief of apostolic succession is not a distinctly Roman one. The Orthodox as well as the Anglicans hold to it. In point of fact, so did just about all of the gnostics. That is to say, it was the universal teaching of the Church. One cannot find anyone seriously questioning it for the first 3/4 of Christian history.

    The concept of apostolic succession is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures. (Except by some very far-fetched self-serving interpretation.) In fact, just the opposite. Christ taught that shortly after his leaving earth Satan would sew weeds, "sons of the wicked one," among the wheat "sons of the kingdom." (Mt. 13) And Paul prophesied that after the deaths of the apostles organized Christianity would be corrupted. (Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thess. 2:1-3; 1 Tim. 4:1-3) And, in very short order, it was. That being the case, it makes perfect sense that very shortly after the deaths of the apostles presumptuous men, seeking power and glory for themselves, would falsely claim to have inherited the apostles' authority. And they did. And they still do.

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    There is a difference between falling away FROM Christianity and the falling away OF Christianity. The former is possible, but the latter is not. If the latter is possible, then Christ's purpose in coming was in vain. He may as well have waited to come until the correct time, if that were the case. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide and teach His followers. If all of them apostasized, the HS would have failed in that mission. That it was never intended for all believers to fall away from Christianity is evident in Matt. 16:18 and Eph.3:21 Are we to imagine that Christ and the Holy Spirit were complete failures and that everyone had to wait for centuries until modern times for some man like Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell or anyone else to come along and be able to accomplish what He couldn't? What would have prevented Smith or Russell or anyone else's followers not to apostasize?

    That there are heretics in Christianity is evident in Scripture, but that they are able to subvert Christianity is not. Someone passed Christianity along.

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    Matthew 16:18 really says it all. Jesus gave the job of "Apostle to the Nations" to Peter, not Paul. Paul claimed it for himself, by way of a "vision", the story of which changed every time chameleon Paul told it. Jesus said he would return at the "end of the age", he didn't say he was coming back to pay Paul a visit. As a result, traditional Christianity follows Paul, not Jesus. If I said that I saw Jesus while I was driving on the highway, and he gave me a new Gospel, and then I said that anyone who doesn't follow my gospel should be accursed, what two words would you say to me?

    http://www.love-the-truth.net/wall.html

    ProdigalSon

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    The concept of apostolic succession is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.

    Or is it hidden in plain sight?

    I would suggest that the basic concept (if not any of its particular, local or confessional versions) actually underlies most of the N.T.

    What is the point of the Synoptic Gospels and Acts in insisting on a definite "body" (sorry) of authorised "apostles" (the Twelve, even though their lists differ) at a time when none of them was probably around anymore, if not claiming authority for the readers' current leaders and their teaching (or "tradition")? Would that make sense if the notion of "the apostles" as mediators to the next generation was not implicitly understood? The role of "the apostles" in Ephesians, 1 Peter precisely implies mediation in the construction of the church over the generations. And this culminates in the Pastorals, where intermediary figures (Timothy and Titus) derive their authority from Paul and transmit it to the episkopoi, and so on(cf. 2 Timothy 2:2).

    However attractive to us, the Protestant idea of the apostles' authority being transmitted to a fixed corpus of writings instead of people, is utterly... unscriptural.

    And Paul prophesied that after the deaths of the apostles organized Christianity would be corrupted. (Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thess. 2:1-3; 1 Tim. 4:1-3)

    No passage of the NT actually suggests that the so-called "false teachers" would conquer the Church, as sectarian Christianity assumes. The whole strategy of the Pastorals is about unmasking the "false teachers" and putting them out of the Church. There is no hint (of course!) that this strategy would fail.

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan
    However attractive to us, the Protestant idea of the apostles' authority being transmitted to a fixed corpus of writings instead of people, is utterly... unscriptural.

    A key point that can't be stressed enough on an ex-jw message board ;)

    Upon leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses the protestant model is naturally going to be the way which most people who continue to believe will flow, being that their own personal experience with "organization" guides the way they interpret and perceive Christianity.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    A Christian said: And Paul prophesied that after the deaths of the apostles organized Christianity would be corrupted. (Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thess. 2:1-3; 1 Tim. 4:1-3) And, in very short order, it was. That being the case, it makes perfect sense that very shortly after the deaths of the apostles presumptuous men, seeking power and glory for themselves, would falsely claim to have inherited the apostles' authority. And they did. And they still do.

    A Christian,

    True, Apostolic succession (of the original 12) is not taught in scripture. In order to be one of the 12, one must be personally appointed by Christ and not by any of the others the way they tried to do with Matthias. The account in Acts described an error on their part (one of several recorded in Acts) and why Paul had so much trouble later during his ministry as one of the 12. They had the authority to appoint an apostle of course even as we could appoint someone to represent us but they could not appoint an Apostle of Christ and include him as one of the 12. Such an appointment had to be done personally as Christ later did with Paul when He corrected their error. Peter, Paul and John each described corruption in the Faith long before any of them died and much of the NT texts are devoted to exposing and eliminating this corruption. The scriptures even described such corruption among the Apostles themselves like Peter and John and disciples like James and thousands of believers in Jerusalem. This went on for many years in fact. After the death of the Apostles things got much worse and we see little resemblance or what they taught in churches today.

    Prodigal Son said: Matthew 16:18 really says it all. Jesus gave the job of "Apostle to the Nations" to Peter, not Paul. Paul claimed it for himself, by way of a "vision", the story of which changed every time chameleon Paul told it.

    Prodigal son,

    Jesus did not give the job of "Apostle to the Nations" to Peter. Matt 16:18 simply said: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. With this appointment Peter had authority over the faith such as allowing Gentiles access to it. But this appointment did not include absolute authority over the faith or doctrine as they still all made errors and similar instructions were also given to the other Apostles. Only Jesus had such absolute authority and would correct them as need be. What Jesus did do was to make Paul not only His Apostle but one to both the Nations and the Jews. For the most part the other 11 apostles were still keeping the Law and were not serving Christ’s interest as He intended. Christ therefore went outside his original following to pick His 12 th Apostle who would serve both Israel and the Nations. Later, after Christ personally met and selected Paul we read: 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake. It would be Paul who would correct Peter, James, John and Jews everywhere in matters regarding church doctrine and Paul who would serve the Nations in an exemplary way.

    Narkissos said: Or is it hidden in plain sight?

    I would suggest that the basic concept (if not any of its particular, local or confessional versions) actually underlies most of the N.T.

    Narkissos,

    The Church in Antioch appointed Paul and Barnabas as apostles to represent them. It was done like this: 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. This did not make either of them one of the 12, but it did make them apostles for the Church of Antioch. This is all the original 11 could have done as well with Matthias. Anyone or any group can do the same for their interests. But what they could not do is make someone an Apostle of the Lamb as this is something only the Lamb, Jesus Christ could do and it took a miraculous appearance in order to accomplish this task in the case of Paul. Later they did this again and included some others: 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. With such support Paul had partial success but it would take over 14 more years before the matter would be resolved completely. Apostasy is not an easy thing to get rid of and it was a big problem in the faith even during the days of the Apostles.

    There were apostles of men such as those made by the original 11 to feed the flock after Pentecost and the ones made by the Church in Antioch which included Paul. This is not a problem unless they transform themselves into apostles of Christ: 2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. We know what kind of people they really are by such actions. And there was Paul who was an apostle of Christ apart from such appointments by men like this: Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;). Such examples show that we can make apostles to represent us and even give them some of the authority that we may have. But we cannot make an apostle for Christ and the scriptures show that Christ had to step in and correct their error in judgment. Just as Christ himself taught: Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit— fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Christ chooses and not us and we learned that the fruit of Matthias did not last. This limit to man’s authority is one apostolic succession teachers have yet to learn.

    Joseph

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Joseph, Your comment shows clear and deep perception. I, for one, learned from it and appreciate it. And Mike ("a Christian"), you did a good job too. Thanks to you both. Frank

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    I don't quite understand the confusion here. The eleven appointed a replacement for Judas. Jesus gave Peter authority. Peter wouldn't have appointed Judas without the authority to do so. I see nothing in scripture to indicate Christ had to do the appointing himself. Regarding apostolic succession, here's what the Catholic Encyclopedia says:

    "The principle underlying the Roman claim is contained in the idea of succession. "To succeed" is to be the successor of, especially to be the heir of, or to occupy an official position just after, as Victoria succeeded William IV. Now the Roman Pontiffs come immediately after, occupy the position, and perform the functions of St. Peter; they are, therefore, his successors. " http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    I see nothing in scripture to indicate Christ had to do the appointing himself.

    StAnn,

    But that is the very point taught in the texts. If someone else chose you then you would be their apostle not an apostle of Christ. They could not choose for themselves who was one of the twelve. Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, ‘Did not I choose you—the twelve? and of you—one is a devil. The lesson is this case goes a bit further. Even a chosen on can fall away. And in this case our Lord required a specific number and not a succession of apostles as time went on. Lu 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; This is why a special and personal appearance of our Lord was required to maintain it. Apostolic succession would require such appearances each time an apostle would be replaced. This has not happened and so we know that Paul was the last to be chosen for this purpose. This was also a restriction which limits such appointments to 12 instead of a succession of 12. So we learn later that: Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Joseph

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Good point Joseph!

    I wonder why James C has not weighed in on this yet.

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