California Court Affirms Right To Gay Marriage (page 5)

Junction-Guy

I do not think that homosexuality is something people are born with, there may be some biological predispositions, but nurture by far is the biggest one.

And the majority of gay people know that unless they proclaim they were born gay, gay marriage doesn't stand a hope of a chance in most of this country. Therefore it becomes politically expedient to proclaim being born gay, even if deep down they don't totally buy into it.

BenV

Hello Junction-Guy,

I'm really happy that you know who you are and how you want to live. But several things you've written are assumptions about other people that you couldn't possible know -- unless you were them.

I do not think that homosexuality is something people are born with,

How do you know this? Have you spoken with reputable psychologists or sociologists who have thoroughly and empirically investigated this? Or have you avoided an honest investigation because it would challenge your views. You make the assumption that gay behavior and being a Christians -- cannot be reconciled. Then why are there so many educated, intelligent members of the Christian clergy, both straight and gay, who have opened their churches and theology to be inclusive of gay people? There's an excellent documentary (on DVD) titled "For the Bible Tells Me So" that addresses all of the things you've mentioned here. If you really want to get an objective view -- I recommend that you see it. There's also a great documentary (on DVD) titled "One Nation Under God." It looks at ex-gay ministries and includes a variety of comments from Christians, scientists, and people on both sides of the issue. I found it interesting (and they're in the film) that the two founders of Exodus (the leading ex-gay ministry) who were extremely devoted Christians ended up falling in love with each other, declared their love for each other on national TV and became life partners and, of course, left that ministry.

And the majority of gay people know that unless they proclaim they were born gay, gay marriage doesn't stand a hope of a chance in most of this country. Therefore it becomes politically expedient to proclaim being born gay, even if deep down they don't totally buy into it.

Do you really think this is a fair comment? You're implying that gay people are being disingenuous and dishonest. To me, that's a very harsh accusation. Junction-Guy, I can understand people's fear of "the outsider," the other," of people who are different -- it's basic tribal behavior and goes back for millennia. This is where I think Jesus' counsel about not judging people is so wise. Do the Christian thing -- and don't judge. I've had to give up my family and a lifetime of friends and a belief system that made me feel safe, assured and secure. Leaving my family and friends is very, very painful to me -- and believe me, if I had a choice, I wouldn't be gay. BUT I AM. I wish you the best, Junction-Guy on your journey. Benjamin

Junction-Guy

How do I know this?--from my own personal experience. Scientists and psychologists can say all they want, but they don't know anybody's personal experience first hand. So in this instance it becomes one persons experience vs. another.

I have been on some gay discussion boards, and anytime the nature vs. nurture argument arises, the nature crowd tries to silence the nurture crowd. Whenever someone brings up the topic of molestation, parental alienation, etc etc etc. What you see publicly is alot of people disagreeing with those factors, what you don't see is the numerous PM's from other people who have expereinced these things, yet are silenced by the activist majority.

BenV

Hey there Junction-Guy,

You wrote:

How do I know this?--from my own personal experience.

What you know is really all about you. And you've made choices on how to live your life. Great!

But your experience is not my experience. Nor is it the experience of the people I know intimately.

Sounds like your mind is made up, Junction-Guy. Wonderful! I respect that you need to live your life as you see fit. But why is it so hard to comprehend that personal freedoms and civil rights for others are not for you to dictate, mandate or police.

I'd give you a big hug, Junction-Guy -- in friendship -- but it sounds like you wouldn't want a person like me touching you. Love, anyway,

Benjamin

Rabbit

JG
How do I know this?--from my own personal experience. Scientists and psychologists can say all they want, but they don't know any body's personal experience first hand. So in this instance it becomes one persons experience vs. another.

Exactly ! That IS THE POINT !

YOU don't know, *I* don't know or understand anyone else's private thoughts about THEIR sexuality ! So, how in good conscience, can a person judge someone on this very personal subject ?

And...it's no fad. It's been around throughout the entire history of the Bible and mankinds,

No one...from one end of the Kinsey Scale...to the other...pose no threat and cause no damage to me or my family -- or yours !

Your friend

Indo_Dude

Junction Guy,

Now I understand why you are so conflicted and seemingly angry all the time. You haven't come to grips with your sexuality yet, which is sad. I wish you wouldn't hate yourself so much, and learn to love yourself. I don't know you from Adam, but when you claimed you were 'molested, but not in the classic sense' last week it set off alarm bells in my head. Unfortunately, in my opinion your are much like Larry Craig. Vowing loudly, and publically that gays shouldn't get married, are flawed, and not Christian, while skulking in airport bathrooms looking for dudes to suck/gratify you sexually.

I honestly feel bad for you, and wish you could overcome your self-hate. Life is too short to hate yourself dude. Trust me, I hated myself for far too long.

BurnTheShips

Now I understand why you are so conflicted and seemingly angry all the time. You haven't come to grips with your sexuality yet, which is sad.

Conflicted and angry?

Your posts over the last couple of days have been nothing but a screaming rant. JG has never been anything but polite. Then you come at him with this:

Unfortunately, in my opinion your are much like Larry Craig. Vowing loudly, and publically that gays shouldn't get married, are flawed, and not Christian, while skulking in airport bathrooms looking for dudes to suck/gratify you sexually.

We all have our flaws and weaknesses. He has chosen to not live as a homosexual. You have. It's his choice and you should respect it. You have some issues.

BTS

Junction-Guy

Benjamin, maybe if there were more people around like you, when I was really conflicted with this, it could have made a difference. But just about every gay and gay friendly person on this board practically shunned me here, and this was well before I was even vocal about my christian beliefs.

Yes I was confused, yes I was angry, and alot more things, but not one person that I ever reached out to, had the decency to talk with me about this.

Indo_dude---I have never sought out sex in bathrooms, I don't even know for sure if Larry Craig did or if it was a set up.

I never wanted sex in the first place, I was looking for friendship, a place to belong, and other positive things.

I know all too well about A Common Bond and have been on their website in the past. I tried to make contact with people, but once they find out you aren't looking for sex or a civil union partner, they pretty much drop you like a hot pan.

lonelysheep

I honestly feel bad for you, and wish you could overcome your self-hate. Life is too short to hate yourself dude. Trust me, I hated myself for far too long.

I do, too.

Bisexuality is okay as well.

Billy the Ex-Bethelite

BenV, dwtnphotog, CountryGuy, VoidEater, Indo_Dude, and friends,

Congrats on the progress in Cali ! I hope you have some great celebrations and find joy in any upcoming marriages.

I'm very happy for you.

B the X

California Court Affirms Right To Gay Marriage

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