Natural disasters- Does permission equal causation?

by nvrgnbk 28 Replies latest jw friends

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    "God is omnipotent in theory but not in effect"

    Here is something I posted recently:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/157852/1.ashx

    1. Y is absolutely omnipotent means that Y "can do everything absolutely. Everything that can be expressed in a string of words even if it can be shown to be self-contradictory," Y "is not bound in action, as we are in thought by the laws of logic."[9] This position is advanced by Descartes. It has the theological advantage of making God prior to the laws of logic, but the theological disadvantage of making God's promises suspect. On this account, the omnipotence paradox is a genuine paradox, but genuine paradoxes might nonetheless be so.
    2. Y is omnipotent means "Y can do X" is true if and only if X is a logically consistent description of a state of affairs. This position was once advocated by Thomas Aquinas.[11] This definition of omnipotence solves some of the paradoxes associated with omnipotence, but some modern formulations of the paradox still work against this definition. Let X = "to make something that its maker cannot lift". As Mavrodes points out there is nothing logically contradictory about this; a man could, for example, make a boat which he could not lift.[12] It would be strange if humans could accomplish this feat, but an omnipotent being could not. Additionally, this definition has problems when X is morally or physically untenable for a being like God.
    3. Y is omnipotent means "Y can do X" is true if and only if "Y does X" is logically consistent. Here the idea is to exclude actions which would be inconsistent for Y to do but might be consistent for others. Again sometimes it looks as if Aquinas takes this position.[13] Here Mavrodes' worry about X= "to make something its maker cannot lift" will no longer be a problem because "God does X" is not logically consistent. However, this account may still have problems with moral issues like X = "tells a lie" or temporal issues like X = "brings it about that Rome was never founded."[9]
    4. Y is omnipotent means whenever "Y will bring about X" is logically possible, then "Y can bring about X" is true. This sense, also does not allow the paradox of omnipotence to arise, and unlike definition #3 avoids any temporal worries about whether or not an omnipotent being could change the past. However, Geach criticizes even this sense of omnipotence as misunderstanding the nature of God's promises.[9]
    5. Y is almighty means that Y is not just more powerful than any creature; no creature can compete with Y in power, even unsuccessfully.[9] In this account nothing like the omnipotence paradox arises, but perhaps that is because God is not taken to be in any sense omnipotent. On the other hand, Anselm of Canterbury seems to think that almightiness is one of the things that makes God count as omnipotent.[14]

    If God ordained Free Will, he ordained a domain where he cannot act by definition.
    It seems to me that it must be true that either God cannot or will not exert his power in the context of Free Will:

    If cannot, because Free Will cannot be forced and remain Free or a Will at all---it is because it is a logical impossibility, and logic binds even God on this plane, and he cannot make a square circle.

    If will not, it is because the violation of Free Will would be a greater evil than any suffering it would relieve. In which case we should be grateful despite doloris, as we live in the best of all possible worlds, in which we can be divine within our own domains of the Will. Perhaps even suffering has a salvific power that is not immediately evident to us, but I digress.

    Regarding natural evils, we only know how we would act in a given situation. If two men see a robbery in progress, and they vary among themselves in power, goodness and knowledge, it is reasonable to surmise that they will act differently. Let's assume equal power and goodness between the two characters but a variance in knowledge. The first man might know that he can easily wrestle the armed robber to the ground and defuse the threat. The second might know the same, but he also knows that the robber has a semtex belt and would choose to self detonate if he is physically restrained. The first man would take action, and the second would not.
    My point is that we cannot know how an omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent being should act without being all these things ourselves. How does such a being respond to a natural evil like the Myanmar disaster? We cannot know that a OOO being would prevent such a thing, we cannot even know the probability of such an action. Only human hubris could assume to know such a thing. The OOO being knows about the semtex belt. The human cannot.

    Or, to quote Snowbird's reference:

    You asked, 'Who is this muddying the water, ignorantly confusing the issue, second-guessing my purposes?' I admit it. I was the one. I babbled on about things far beyond me

    BTS

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    I recommend Job's attitude to all concerned.

    The Lord giveth, and the Lord Taketh away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

    BTS

  • TopHat
    TopHat

    All indications are, God is not interfering with what disasters happen here on Earth. Don't forget, when God is ready, his son will resurrect the dead. I personally do not like to see suffering for humans or animals and don't understand it. So I have no answer for hardship and pain.

  • journey-on
    journey-on

    I don't think it's God....I think it's Mother Nature. Sometimes she has to clean house. I believe it is all natural adjustments and

    housecleaning taking place in Her domain, the earth. Sometimes just a quick swipe with the mop is all that is needed and sometimes

    she needs to get the power washer out. Sometimes a sweep with the broom is sufficient, and sometimes the industrial vacuum cleaner

    has to be applied. It's the earth's natural Way of cleaning, pruning, adjusting, and rearranging. It's nothing against the people who just

    happen to be in her area of concentration at the moment.

  • jaguarbass
    jaguarbass

    My best explination to your question is, We are God, spirits having human experiences, maybe even some form of reincarnation going on.

    If we get zapped we just come back again.

    I have no proof of this, it's just one of many possibilities I have pondered.

    One that sort of lets God off the hook.

  • Bring_the_Light
    Bring_the_Light
    nvr - are you sitting in judgment of God?

    I AM! memememe! If we're going to sit in judgment of God, I NEED to be on the committee. I've already got my sternly worded letter of admonishment half-drafted. This will get me some good ideas on how to finish it with a KICK.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk
    It's nothing against the people who just

    happen to be in her area of concentration at the moment.

    So it's "sorry about your luck" and that's it?

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    When an earthquake survivor is rescued, is God to be praised?

    What about those that didn't make it?

    When a child trapped in the stench and the rubble chokes on her last breath, is it just God calling her home?

    If so, why send rescue teams at all?

    Why obstruct God's plans?

  • keyser soze
    keyser soze

    Maybe he's just an asshole.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk
    Maybe he's just an asshole.

    Easy there, keyser.

    You wouldn't want to find yourself on the business end of the Lord God Almighty.

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