early christians 144000

by joelbear69 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • joelbear69

    The Bible says the 144000 would be the first fruits. Witnesses have interpetted that over
    and over as meaning that the first 144000 to accept Christ would be his bride.

    Well Peter baptized 3000 people in one day in the early years of Christianity according to
    the Bible.

    Historical data indicate that thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of early Christians
    were put to death for their faith during the Roman Empire.

    Puritans have been pointed to the Watchtower as possibilities of annointed that joined
    through the 1900 years before the final calling started. Thousands of them died by
    persecution or by trying to establish a new Christian colony in the new world (the new
    word, get it)

    There was a peak of about 40,000 partakers in the late 30's (check my figures). T

    There are still 10,000 left? No way.

    Just as we saw the generation doctrine change. Just as we have seen "the date"
    changing for 130 years, so eventually we will see a change in the remnant doctrine
    and how he remnant is defined. Perhaps how the 144000 is defined. Possibly
    that they were not started being gathered until 1914. That's my guess. That
    they were not started being gathered until Christ began his rule in heaven. Would
    make a perfect transition.

    Two sets of annointed. One from Jesus' time and one from the time of the end.

  • BurnTheShips

    There were way more than 144000 aggregate Christians in the Roman Empire in the first three centuries after Christ.

    And there were many Christians outside the Roman Empire. Abgar of Edessa converted his whole people.


  • glenster

    They lose me as soon as they claim to be the exclusive spokesmen of a literal
    144,000 and claim their dozen or so rules meant to show it are proven by the
    best evidence and reasoning. It all goes crooked from there.

    The JWs leaders will probably stick to their original version--that Jesus and
    the apostles were such lousy teachers that only a tiny number believed them
    and were likewise lousy teachers because they disappeared without a trace.
    They only reappeared in recent years to sell lousy literature.

  • isaacaustin

    however, if they say that both groups have been picked concurrently they can uphold their 2 class teaching

  • allreadygone

    Memorial attendance in 1925 was around 90,000 But I guess since they have changed about every teaching since then, they did not have the TRUTH so were not really annointed. Same for all those poor christians in the last 2000 years who gave there life for God. What makes a real member of the 144,000 is your ability to swallow the currant red Kool-Aid Gone

  • BluesBrother

    The Watchtower admitted this -

    w51 9/1 p. 516 Hated for His Name *

    **"Nero saw to it that the first of these terrible persecutions set the pace for the rest. At once he caused Christians to be rounded up, summarily condemned and put to death in the most barbaric manner conceivable. Some were thrown to the fierce beasts in the public arena, others were sewed in animal skins and left to the fury of wild dogs, many were crucified, and still others were garbed in combustible materials and ignited to become human torches lighting the gardens of Nero by night. It was in this persecution that the apostle Paul was martyred.

    Brief respite followed the death of Nero, but by the latter years of the first century the second great persecution, under Emperor Domitian, flared up. It is said that in the year 95 alone some 40,000 suffered martyrdom."

    How many spaces were left? Allowing for modern day numbers ....it does not add up.

  • ibme


    Me rarely have much to say about matters.

    However, on thing subject, 144,000, me has
    been expressing your thoughts for many, many
    many, years.

    The figures do not add up.

    In fact just two weeks ago me brought the
    subject up again, (me often do, great point for
    getting ones mind working, if one wants ones
    mind to work) the person just look at me.

    Not condemning or condoning, but were are
    peoples minds.

    Thanks for bring the subject up.


  • jwfacts

    You are spot on. There were likely over 144000 Christians in the first century alone. There were over 50000 Anointed JWs in 1935.

    "Brief respite followed the death of Nero, but by the latter years of the first century the second great persecution, under Emperor Domitian, flared up. It is said that in the year 95 alone some 40,000 suffered martyrdom. … Also, it was in this period that John, last living of the twelve apostles, was exiled to the isle of Patmos, from where he recorded the inspired Bible book of Revelation about A.D. 96. Watchtower 1951 September 1 p.516

    "Year Att. Part.
    1935 ...... 63,146 ... 52,465"
    Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom p.717

    With the new teaching that the calling has not yet closed I feel it is only a matter of time before the WTS tells anyone willing to listen that the 144,000 is a figurative number.

  • JCanon

    Exellent point. 144,000 seems very much too low! But does 1,440,000?

    Isa 6:13 talks about the tree of Judah being chopped down with only the root remaining equated to 10%.

    13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.”

    For those with reasonable Bible knowledge we know the gentiles are considered wild olives grafted into the olive tree replacing the Jews who were unfaithful. But they are reminded still that the "root" remains Jewish.

    Thus in reality, the 144,000, while representative of the whole, is the precise number of the natural Jews, in which case they only represent 10% of the whole, which would be 1,440,000.

    So the true Bride class is really not just 144,000 but 1,440,000 when all is said and done. Of course, another misunderstanding by JWs which reflects on the Bible's teachings.

    The number of JIOR just among American actors alone tells us there must be more than 144,000 (i.e. Robin Williams, Bob Sagat, Clint Eastwood, Loretta Young, Ed Harris, Gene Hackman, OJ Simpson, Nicholas Cage, Sam Elliot, Keith Carradine, Sean Connery, Eddie Murphy and Raul Julia are just some of the ones that come to mind.) Clearly this would suggest that there must be more than just 144,000. And, of course, there are, there are 1,440,000.

    Plus, even so, it is not clear if this is just a figurative number. That is, there is a slight potentiality that it could be as much as double this amount. That is, if this is just the number of physical bodies in the kingdom, since resurrected ones must share modern identities, that is, they are resurrected into the imperfect bodies of modern anointed ones, potentially there could be douple this amount of actual anointed ones. Thus all those from the ancient past and the first century wouldn't add up toward the total body count, which we know is a specific number.

    Another indicator that certainly there are more than 144,000 is the fact that per Jesus' illustration, when he does arrive and the call goes forth to joint the wedding feast a lot of people beg off and don't show up. So there is a desperate last-minute rush to fill the wedding banquet with people from all areas, people not originally invited. So whatever the number, it's hard to fill. Even the DELAY in Armageddon, that is the seeming delay since it will be DELAYED but NOT LATE (Hab 2:3 " 3 For [the] vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late.") suggests the the delay is due to not being able to fill the number. I suppose an actual representative modern body count of 1,440,000 bodies of those worthy can be challenging.

    Another specific issue with JWs is, that the original anointed ones basically are represented by the "ten virgins", that is, those still alive in 1992-1998 and the Bible divides them into wise and foolish virgins. So essentially only half the anointed alive at the time of the second coming associated with JWs actually get into the kingdom. The other half fails as "foolish virgins." Now they all eventually (and it may be even now, apparently) finally accept the prodigal son messiah scenario is Biblical and real, maybe after they see 1914 and 607 BCE are just no longer real dates for what they think, but it's too late when they finally do.

    So again, our routine now is to separate what the WTS teaches from what the Bible may alternatively be teaching which is more in line with reality.

    Holy Ones are being selected for the kingdom and many don't know they have been selected. Nor do they actually need to know until the millennium actually starts. So there will be lots of scenarios of: "Lord, when did I see you hungry and feed you, or in prison and came to you?" Those surprised they have kingdom seats and this ws not part of their religious beliefs per se.

    Interesting how many male actors are JIOR compared to women. I'm only aware of a couple of women, in fact for sure, Loretta Young and Diana Ross. Of course, Berry Gordy and Smokey Robinson made the cut as well. But no other women have been revealed to me. That doesn't mean there are not more women, but maybe it's just inappropriate to mention them at this time. Maybe it has to do with the rule that women are more of the "silent in the congregation" situation. Not sure.

    Interesting, looking at the surface is one thing. But whom these people are as far as the kingdom of the Heavens is something else entirely. As far as Jehovah is concerned, they are "Holy Ones" of high rank. People are chosen for God's own reasons, I suppose, that makes no more sense to most than the prodigal son being chosen over the faithful older brother to be the messiah.

    Anyway, getting back to the issue, obivously 1,440,000 (potentially up to 2,880,00 is the resurrected are not included in the "body count"). is a lot more realistic number than just a mere 144,000. Plus everybody baptized and anointed doesn't prove faithful; Judas being an example. You have to be in good standing at death. Some, of course, while losing out on their kingdom seat don't lose out on eternal life. Thus wome "receive a few strokes, and some receive many strokes."


  • ldrnomo
    Exellent point. 144,000 seems very much too low! But does 1,440,000?

    And then, as time wears on, the borg can just keep adding zero's at the end.


Share this