An interesting discussion with my wife

by 10p 17 Replies latest jw experiences

10p

Last night I had an interesting talk with my wife in bed.
Oprah had a show on recently about gays. Now I don't normally watch Oprah, but she was watching a taped one in the evening, so I was just overhearing stuff. Anyway, I think my wife puts more faith in Oprah than in the GB :)
So anyway, we were discussing something unrelated, and she said to me "you seem very commenty about the society again lately" I can't even remember what comment I made, but I've been careful not to be 'anti' anymore, so it would have been something benevelont that she was a bit sensitive about. I said I'd been reading this forum lately, and felt sorry for all the bad experiences I'd read about. So she started getting defensive and said am I just reading nasty stuff from bitter and twisted people and its affecting me.
So I said (in a completely calm and loving manner that I haven't really been capable of up to this time when discussing the religion) that yes, there are some bitter people, and even though they may have had bad experiences, their tone and manner makes me just skip over their posts. But there really are plenty of people who are really calm and rational and mostly over the whole thing, but only post because they still have family in the religion - otherwise we wouldn't even hear from them!
THen I said to her, dont assume that all people who've left are all bitter and twisted - that you only see ex-witnesses from one angle, because its the only angle the society ever presents of them!
This is where the gay thing comes in ... I said, its like when I found out one of my friends was gay 10 years ago. Back then, my only info about homosexuality was all wrong, and I judged him. Now, with a broader understanding, I realise that you ARE born gay. I mean, hell, I COULDNT be gay, even if I really wanted to piss god off and be the worst person possible - I could maybe steal or murder to piss god off, but I couldn't be gay!
Well, she agreed with me. Oprah has progressibly opened her eyes about homosexuality, and her (my wife's) view is quite different to the society's. She still thinks its not normal, a defect if you will, but understands from all the real life experiences on Oprah that its not like these are bad people who've chosen to be gay because they want to be bad.
Then I continued, that 20 years ago or so, human society in general viewed gays as been perverted sex maniacs, parading in their "pride" parades in bondage gear etc. So the extreme gays set what society thought of all gays, because the avergae, everyday gay didn't want to be assosiated with that extreme image, and so stayed in the closet.
Apostates are like that - the extremist, vocal ones are the ones you hear about, because they are extreme and vocal. So you think all apostates are like that, and the watchtower publications perpetuate that image. No wonder you think the people I assosiate with on JWD are all 'bitter and twisted'. Some are, but most are just normal people, some of whom have had real shit lives because of the religion. I feel for them, and I feel for myself, because me experience as a witness hasn't been all roses either. I reminded her that her life as a witness has been very protected. Her parents were actually really balanced, and often got into trouble with the elders for things like letting their kids have worldy friends, and go out on dates wthout a chaperone etc etc. I said your parents have protected you from what others in the religion have had to face.
But I must point out, I was amazed at how relaxed I was, I didn't feel that little thing inside me I normally do which is like an attack mechanism. I felt really "buddist" (not that I know anything about buddism).
Then I told her I really dont mind people believeing what they want to believe. The only thing that still bothers me about witnesses is the disfellowshipping rules. I think its absolutely their prerogative to DF people, just like a company has the right to fire someone who isn't abiding by the company rules. fair enough. but a company doesn't have the right to fire other staff if they are seen down at the pub with that ex-employee! I said, I will be really happy if the society changes the rule so that you can assosiate with DF'ed people, but its your conscience. I said, hey - you assosiate with me, and I'm practically apostate - and it hasn't instantly made you leave 'the truth'. People aren't so simple minded, and can look after themselves, and must stand before god on their own anyway.
Well, she agreed with me, and said thats the way she views it anyway - she wouldn't WANT to assosiate with most DF'ed people anyway, but she WILL assosiate with my sister who is DF'ed because she's family and doesn't ever try to influence my wife on her personal religous beliefs anyway. If she tried to, them my wife would tell her to back off, and if she didn't, she'd stop assosiating with her, not because of her apostate ideas, but because who wants to be friends with an arse who doesn't respect your wishes anyway!
I said, if they changed that, and hopefully the blood thing wont be much of an issue anymore, as doctors use it more sparingly and as witnesses can use 'fractions' anyway, there are far less situations where it is an issue. Then I would be happy for her to be a witness, and me to be an atheist, and all would be fine. Her witness friends could come round for dinner etc (if they wanted to - so long as I wasn't disrespecting them by trying to change their beliefs).
I think the one thing that this change in the bookstudy has shown, is that the publishers want things to be a certain way - how come the response has been OVERWHELMINGLY positive from the pubs, when just last month, the official line was that all the meetings were important etc. All the witnesses around the world were faithfully doing as they were told, even though they all felt it would be better not to have the bookstudy! So how many feel the same about disfellowshipping, and would gladly welcome a more humane view? Its time for the GB to stop dictating, and let people actually use their conscience for themselves!
I think its the best discussion I've had with my wife on these topics, and while I'm not hopeful of her leaving the religion ... I feel we are on the same philosophical plane again, weird as that may be when I'm an atheist and she's a JW.
fingers crossed.
PS, I went back and added the highlighting when I realised what a long post it was, so that those who are put off by long posts (like me) could garner the main points. sorry for the long post, and sorry for the highlighting if it annoys you. you cant please everybody!
OnTheWayOut

I hope my bitter tone doesn't make you skip over my posts.
I don't know about being "born gay." It is a huge debate that cannot
be summed up in "born gay."
For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb,
and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are
eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of
heaven's sake.
A eunuch is not gay- he has his testicles crushed or chooses to abstain
from sex with women, but I believe principly, that some are born
homosexual, some are made homosexual by force, some choose to
turn to homosexuality after not being so.
As far as the bookstudy goes, an occasional JW will break out of their
cult personality and be honest, but typically not with the judgmental JW's.
They might be honest when they feel confidentiality will be respected as
the situation is with you and your wife. Surprisingly, my mother admits that
she hates the long conventions and assemblies, is tiring of the same old
stuff at the meetings. Of course, she won't say that to the elders.
jamiebowers

When she seems receptive, you may also want to point out to your wife that not everyone who is da'd or df'd committed a sin. There are many of us who left to escape severe physical and/or sexual abuse. There are many of us who simply stopped believing. As for your dislike of the bitter people on this site, (which I am one), you must understand that being prevented from having any contact with our family members who are still in, makes a person very bitter. Can you imagine what it is like to have to leave the organization to escape physical or sexual abuse within the organization and then have your family turn on you? It hurts, and though the pain lessens, it never goes away.
As for people who were da'd or df'd due to sin, didn't Jesus say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? For the most part, jws are so busy with being concerned about the sins of others, they don't have time to look at themselves or the crooked leadership which they are following.
megaflower

I think most JW's live in fear. They are fearful to express how they really feel on matters due to reprisal. Most JW friendship is conditional. They are your friends as long as you measure up to what the FDS class says you should be doing. The moment you slack off in field service, miss meetings, not comment at WT study, skip assemblys, leave early from the meetings (this was on of my favorites, we would leave after the announcements right before the service meeting).
Perhaps your wife will come around in time. It sounds like she is more open minded now and that is big for a dub.
BFD

Just ignor OTWO, he's bitter.
I like your analogy of "pride" marches and rabid apostates.
Being born gay, I totally agree with it. Although it's fun to let your hair down (or put it up ), there is a time and a place for everything.
BFD
cognizant dissident

As for your dislike of the bitter people on this site, (which I am one), you must understand that being prevented from having any contact with our family members who are still in, makes a person very bitter. Can you imagine what it is like to have to leave the organization to escape physical or sexual abuse within the organization and then have your family turn on you? It hurts, and though the pain lessens, it never goes away.
First of all, yes I can imagine the situation you describe, as I have experienced it myself, and so have many others on this board. Many can understand and empathize with your pain. Kudos to you ( and all) who found the strength and courage to leave such a difficult situation and make a new life.
However, "bitterness" and "anger" is a response that we have some control over. It is an understandable response, but we do have a choice whether to let it go as quickly as possible and move on and have a happy productive life. Some people hang on to anger and bitterness and nurse it, nourishing it and feeding it, helping it to grow bigger and stronger until it becomes the dominant "mode of being" and interacting with others in the world. It is the person who is bitter and angry who continues to suffer long after the original offense is over.
Other people may then tend to avoid them because it is pleasant to be in the company of someone who is always angry and bitter.
jamiebowers

However, "bitterness" and "anger" is a response that we have some control over. It is an understandable response, but we do have a choice whether to let it go as quickly as possible and move on and have a happy productive life. Some people hang on to anger and bitterness and nurse it, nourishing it and feeding it, helping it to grow bigger and stronger until it becomes the dominant "mode of being" and interacting with others in the world. It is the person who is bitter and angry who continues to suffer long after the original offense is over.
Perhaps I don't know the people on this board as well as I thought, because I can't think of one person who perpetually whines and complains. I've found mostly everyone here willing to listen and advise, if they can. I just hate to see people criticize others for being bitter, because it seems to me that it will stop some from venting. For some who are still in or are in the process of fading, this is the only place for them to let out their frustration and anger. I don't agonize everyday about the loss of contact with my mom, and I have a happy and productive life, but there are times when I am very bitter. I think that is normal. I also appreciate the fact that there are many people on this board who understand exactly where I am coming from, as my wide circle of personal friends are not and never have been jws. I have been out for 20 years, but when I hear my "worldly" aunt worry about my mom's health or financial problems, knowing that there's not a thing I can do about them, I feel bitter. Sorry for those whom it bothers, but thanks to those who don't mind listening with a knowing ear.
zensim

10p - kudos to you and that was a great discussion you had with your wife.
Forgetting all the rest for a moment - how great does it feel:
But I must point out, I was amazed at how relaxed I was, I didn't feel that little thing inside me I normally do which is like an attack mechanism. I felt really "buddist " (not that I know anything about buddism).
Isn't it amazing, once we work/pass through all the emotional turmoil of leaving and questioning everything (mostly ourselves), we move through the bitterness and anger - how you can say the same things you initially thought, but this time from a real place of calmness and then the other person is more receptive?
It is not 'buddhist' it just is being a true human :)
More gets accomplished from this place of openness - which is what the Org just doesn't seem to get.
cognizant dissident

However, "bitterness" and "anger" is a response that we have some control over. It is an understandable response, but we do have a choice whether to let it go as quickly as possible and move on and have a happy productive life. Some people hang on to anger and bitterness and nurse it, nourishing it and feeding it, helping it to grow bigger and stronger until it becomes the dominant "mode of being" and interacting with others in the world. It is the person who is bitter and angry who continues to suffer long after the original offense is over.
Perhaps I don't know the people on this board as well as I thought, because I can't think of one person who perpetually whines and complains. I've found mostly everyone here willing to listen and advise, if they can. I just hate to see people criticize others for being bitter, because it seems to me that it will stop some from venting. For some who are still in or are in the process of fading, this is the only place for them to let out their frustration and anger. I don't agonize everyday about the loss of contact with my mom, and I have a happy and productive life, but there are times when I am very bitter. I think that is normal. I also appreciate the fact that there are many people on this board who understand exactly where I am coming from, as my wide circle of personal friends are not and never have been jws. I have been out for 20 years, but when I hear my "worldly" aunt worry about my mom's health or financial problems, knowing that there's not a thing I can do about them, I feel bitter. Sorry for those whom it bothers, but thanks to those who don't mind listening with a knowing ear.
I have met a number of people in real life who chronically complain bitterly and angrily venting at other people on a fairly continual basis. Quite a few JW's I've met do this (and my own family members). It's true, most of them do have some serious problems. Still, I see others with just as serious problems who don't react in the same way. Maybe it's a "glass half full/or half empty" conundrum?
Anyway, my post criticized no one. I made some general statments about how nursing and holding onto bitterness and anger has more deleterious effects on the person who is bitter than on the object of the bitterness or on the people vented to. Health studies have shown the damaging physical effects on chronic anger on the circulatory system and the nervous system. If you viewed my words as a personal criticism, perhaps it is because you recognized an aspect of yourself in those observations and became defensive about it? It doesn't bother me in the least if you or others live their lives holding onto bitterness and anger. I'll sleep just the same and my life will be unaffected.(hopefully). My point was that ultimately the only person who it will bother and who will suffer for it is you, and possibly those closest to you or those you vent at.
Tired of the Hypocrisy

I realise that you ARE born gay.
I have been saying this forever. I am straight, and understand this concept very well. I got into it with some brothers a few years back who were using a park bbq to really pass judgement and try to look spriritual insteasd of enjoying the park. I said I believe some folks are born gay and that started it.
After the windbags inhaled I started back and I used wt doctrine to prove it. I asked them that if cancer, diabetes, heart disiease, mental illness etc are genetic defects then why isn't it a possibility for some gays to have a defect? (No offense to any gays. I am just trying to set these idiots up) The docs say their looks like there is a gay gene. So if a ene is defective due to Adam's sin and imperfection, and we get mental illness why are we so hard on someone who has another imperfect gene?
They said it is because they are immoral.
So I said, ok, then what about a woman with a defective gene and she is mentally ill and suffers from nymphomania. Is she sick or simply an immoral pig? No one answered.
I myself believe that if we are imperfect on one level then we must be imperfect on many levels. I am no one's judge. (Well I tend to judge the gb) but aside from that group of money grubbing, child fu**ing, degenerate assbags, I think we are all in one big boat and need a little understanding instead of a hateful finger pointing at us.

An interesting discussion with my wife

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