by noontide 37 Replies latest jw friends
I'm sure many, if not all cults use the same reasoning/nonreasoning with their members.
When the members are too afraid/busy or whatever to ever see any thing more than what they currently know, they remain stuck.
Sad, very sad.
I don't think you lost at all....but it would have been more fair, if you'd had back up with you.
lisa
"· Children baptized at a young age (7,8,9 years old) they are not old enough or mature enough to comprehend what they are doing.
o If Jehovah did not approve of this, the Slave would have changed this a long time ago. They are old enough to comprehend what they are doing (marriage is completely different, it does not apply here). Gave examples of the children that became kings in biblical times. These kids were Jehovah approved; the same principle applies today. "
Are they referring to King David? Is this the same one who had the fella sent into battle - so he would get killed - and David could have his wife? Didn't King David do other things that dis-pleased Jehovah? Yeah... great example - King David. This proves YOUR point - that is - getting baptized at a young age - is a bad idea. Kids do not have mature judgement at this young of an age, which often times carries on into their adult life.
Also - wasn't Jesus - our foremost example in the bible - baptized when he was 31 or so? Shouldn't true JWs wait until they are more mature - perhaps late 20's or even 30?
Even the local governments know that youngsters do not have good judgement at a young age. This is why there are laws against drinking under 21 - or smoking (age?) - even driving - until they reach a certain age. Kids do NOT have good judgement at such a young age (7,8,9 years old). This is known. It is a fact.
I'd say you just panicked - were out-numbered - and couldn't think straight.
Next time - tell thm that you'll discuss points with them - but only allow ONE spokesperson - not multiple spokes-people.
Regards,
Jim TX
You did well, did not lose the argument.
Talking to witnesses it's like talking to mules.
It's good to keep in mi.nd to show mercy toward them since all of us used to feel the same way and had the same twisted reasoning for decades and used to argue with anyone that challenged us.
The only hope one day is that the society will screw up badly and maybe many will wake up
I am sorry for your circumstance with your family. So difficult!
I am wondering how a reverse psychology would work:
(State) It's wonderful!:
The organization doesn't want to be burdensome any more, so soon to have meetings just 2x/wk now instead instead of 3/wk. That's great! The organization didn't use to allow alternative service choice to the brothers, now do (allows personal conscience). The organization didn't use to allow vaccinations at one time, now do (allows personal conscience). The organization didn't use to allow organ transplants, now do (allows personal conscience). The organization didn't use to allow blood fractions, now do (allows personal conscience). The organization now allows JWs in Bulgaria to take blood transfusions without even announcing that "they are no longer Jehovah's Witnesses." (State) Recently the organization stated there will be future "new light" that the brothers may have to adapt to. Exciting, makes me wonder, what will change next?!
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The only way to win with the JWs is to stop arguing and start living. When you let them know they have absolutely no control or say in your life and that you are going to be happy, productive and positive, they have no choice.
It's not about debating and winning, it's about having the final word on what you are going to do with your life.
3 hours! WOW - sounds exhausting. I think you did good just to survive it! Anyhow, what works for me is I just drop a few hints that I no longer go to meetings, because I have such a hard time reconciling what I hear with what I see - talk about all the love in the organization vs. all the back-biting, gossip etc.; talk about how close the end is althewhile hearing about the Society's 8-year plan for South America, etc., talk about the importance of young ones getting an education vs. education being Satan-controlled. I mean, how much doublespeak can one person endure on a never-ending basis? Just better to tune out the cacophany.
IMHO, I think you will have more success dealing with individuals rather than groups. With individual discussions, I think you get to reach the true person underneath the cult persona, but in a group, they go into groupthink/groupspeak without even realizing it. Anyhow, I think you did great just to get through it. Thanks for sharing.
The essence of the “conversation” was that since I’m not going to the meetings, aka: in the “organization”, I’m not a good person. They said I’m an independent thinker and straddling the line towards apostasy.
You didn't pick the family's weakest spot for your argument to take effect; you picked your weakest spot.
Authority.
The Watchtower Organization has placed themselves BETWEEN your family and yourself the way the serpent in Eden placed itself between humans and God.
According to God it is YOU who are the family head.
You aren't challenging God's arrangement. It is the Governing Body who is challenging it.
In Jesus' day who was the religious Authority?
Judaism consisted of a Priesthood and officials. Jesus constantly challenged them, did he not?
Why?
Although the Priesthood, the officials representing True Religion were in Authority---THEY MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT of existing on BEHALF of the practioners of "True Religion" and were leading them toward judgement instead of forgiveness.
Stop and re-read that statement.
Jesus challenged Authority on the basis of the PURPOSE of true religious practice.
What is that purpose?
Freeing humans from judgement and condemnation!
The Watchtower authority is making the same mistake as the officials of Judaism in Jesus' day!
Humans do not exist to SERVE the whims and dictates of the Governing Body. Humans are to BE SERVED, instead.
To be served by any organization they would find themselves being UNBURDENED by fetish practice of rules, regulations, dictates, sacrifices and quotas.
The opposite happens within the Kingdom Hall.
You are claiming your God given right as head of your family to point out this ERROR and mirror the example of JESUS in restoring true worship for the purpose of freeing your family from legalistic ritual.
You see the difference?
Otherwise, you are seen by them as being a rebel and a nay-sayer who is jeopardizing their well-being in Jehovah's sight.
Like Jesus--you will point out where these officials have gone wrong even if it means debates, arguments, name-calling and pronouncements that are less than meek--JUST AS JESUS DID.
Jehovah's plan is to release humans from the slavery of ritual and the burden of law and its condemnations. Jehovah's Witnesses are heaped with burdens and beaten by their Evil Slave organization by being made to feel they must earn their salvation by going door to door, attending meetings and keeping their mouths shut.
Assert your right to Authority and don't let these hijacking morons replace you as head of your own household!!
· We should use our heads, use reason and logic and not agree with everything the “Slave” says.
o That sounds like and apostate thought. Even if the “Slave” is misguided, Jehovah will clear things up in his own time.
This is one of the ones that get me. Did Jesus tell us to follow blind people? You know like the blind leading the blind? No! They are lazy and they don't think for themselves. Jesus told us to make sure what the preacher says is in the Bible. jw teach some truth mixed with lies. When you stand in front of Jehovah do you think he is going to ask you about an organization? No! He is going to read your heart. He is going to see if you asked for forgiveness for your sins. No one can save you except God not man or men! I hope you continue to learn about our marvelous God and study his word.
Don't worry about what they say as long as God is in your heart. Ask them to show you what they say in the Bible. Use the NIV or KJV, just some advice because they have changed the Bible, here is another discussion.
Terry said it all!
(marriage is completely different, it does not apply here).
Why not? Both are lifelong "unbreakable" commitments.
·o The apostles came back and reported their experiences and the amount of days they spent with the congregations. That is why we should report hours today.
Wonderful. Report all the experiences you want to. Still don't see how that transforms into reporting "hours". "Hours" are not the same as "experiences".
· We should use our heads, use reason and logic and not agree with everything the “Slave” says.
o That sounds like and apostate thought. Even if the “Slave” is misguided, Jehovah will clear things up in his own time.
Ah, so those pesky Bereans, who researched to see if the things they taught were really so, were apostates too? Fascinating!
o Jehovah has always had an organization. He always works through his organization. If I’m not in the organization there is no way I can please or worship God. They are not perfect but God is using them today. I should submit to God’s will and be humble, independent thoughts will lead me to death; I am fulfilling Satan’s wishes.
Interesting...."always", eh? So who constituted God's organization in 1200 CE? In 1500?
Who constituted God's "organization" in 1878? Wasn't CT Russell committing apostasy by breaking away from them and starting his own religious magazine?
o So now I am smarter than the Slave, Satan thought he was smarter than God. This is God’s instrument and he adjusts their thinking when things are wrong in his due time. Even if we don’t comprehend things, we should follow their direction because sooner or later God will readjust their thinking and they will let us know. I must not run ahead of God’s chariot. I must be humble and patient.
I see...so when "God" told them that organ transplants were perfectly fine...then changed his made an decided that they were "cannibalism"...then changed his mind again, that was all part of God's plan? And all those poor saps who died between 1967 & 1980, who could have been saved by an organ transplant but chose not to, so as to remain loyal to "Jehovah"...well, I guess they get a resurrection anyway, right? And the years of mourning & economic hardships for their families, all that is irrelevant as well, right? "God's organization" bears no bloodguilt for muffing that one up, right?
§ The heavenly hope keeps changing. First it was done in 1935, and then it was open to fill the ones that were unfaithful, now it is open again.
o It was obviously not finished. Jehovah is readjusting our thinking and knowledge. We don’t judge or mistrust those who claim to be of the anointed, even before the current information came out, if an individual began to declare he or she was not anointed, it was between God and the individual, the organization never judged them.
"Obviously not finished?" If you had made that statement in public any year prior to 2007, you'd be disfellowshipped on the spot!
Did you see that it was "obviously" not finished by 1935, before the Watchtower said so?
The organization never judged them? So, when the committee of elders dragged a "new partaker" back to the library and read and re-read and re-read again about how, if Jehovah needed a replacement, he would surely pick someone older and wiser, that was completely non-judgmental?
