Athiest or Agnostic?

by real one 168 Replies latest jw friends

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Nark

    It's interesting also to see how the early Kierkegaardian Karl Barth, a resolute adversary of "natural theology," dealt with Romans 1, reducing its actual cognitive possibilities to zero, and making it wholly unsuitable for apologetics...

    With Barth the whole bible is effectively "unsuitable for apologetics". Barth probably would have preferred to use the phone book.

    I guess I'm just a Van Tillian at heart.

    Burn

    I'd like to take a step back.

    I asked you about: Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

    I would suggest that hillary_step's words, along with a few others actually make my point for me.

    Yes, what do we do with it.

    1) We have a few choices. The first and most obvious one is to conclude that this is a statement of a religious mind, written in an unenlightened age, in a country full of religious fanatics, without the benefit of science to help the statement on its way by a person who truly believed that he was being used as a mouthpiece of some unseen being.

    2) Another option is to take the words as true and conclude that God is a brutal and sociopathic liar. I state this against a backdrop of the fact that everything he 'designed' depended on the killing of other creatures, from microbe to blue whale in order to to survive. In order to facilitate such a Universal Killing Field, God introduces the idea of camouflage so that some are cunningly deceived into death, poisons so that some are brutally injected with toxic chemicals before being eaten, brute force so that some, like the Praying Mantis grabs its prey and eats it head-first, while it is alive. The thing this all has in common is a violence far removed from puffy clouds and gorgeous sunsets.

    3) Conclude that in order for life to survive the process of evolution finds its own common level, unaffected by human emotion or Sky Gods and does what it must to ensure survival of the species, including our own.

    I am sure that you wil have other options to add. ;)

    You're right HS lets add another

    4) We could conclude that the words of Romans 1 are true and that "knowing God, they didn't glorify him as God, neither gave thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things."

  • real one
    real one

    I take option, 4 anyone else?

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Deputy,

    Still doing everything but answering my questions I note.

    I will have to conclude at this point that you have no answers but are just too proud to admit it. No problem, this is quite a common failing with people of 'faith'. ;)

    Why not try the approach of 'Real One' who does not even pretend to have a brain - it is a lot more honest.

    HS

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    I will have to conclude at this point that you have no answers but are just too proud to admit it. No problem, this is quite a common failing with people of 'faith'. ;)

    Bigotry and prejudice. ;-)

    BTS

  • real one
    real one

    Why not try the approach of 'Real One' who does not even pretend to have a brain - it is a lot more honest.

    well at least in my laymens talk I can speak with people who can understand my questions without having to resort to the dictonary to try to understand what i am saying. I have Jesus Christ in my life,

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    HS

    Still doing everything but answering my questions I note.

    Answer your own questions. You know all the answers. That's what you want to do anyway. Go ahead and profess your wisdom to us all.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    With Barth the whole bible is effectively "unsuitable for apologetics".

    Did you ever wonder why?

    On the broader topic of Christian apologetics (not limited to Bible or Bible-supported apologetics) see http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/82598/1.ashx

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Real One,

    well at least in my laymens talk I can speak with people who can understand my questions without having to resort to the dictonary to try to understand what i am saying. I have Jesus Christ in my life

    It is not your life that concerns me, it is your brain.

    HS

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Did you ever wonder why ?

    On the broader topic of Christian apologetics (not limited to Bible or Bible-supported apologetics) see http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/82598/1.ashx

    Apologetics only serve as a confirmation for those that already believe. They are nearly useless otherwise. They only serve as a rational affirmation of what we have already come to believe internally, whether by choice or compulsion.

    BTS

    Edit: Thanks for the thread BTW.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    BTS,

    My question was addressed to DD -- with the faint hope that he might actually wonder instead of replying...

    However, I'm afraid confirmation (which, btw, would imply that the "unbelievers" whom apologetics apparently address are hijacked as strawmen -- or strawwomen -- into an upbuilding discourse from the believers to the believers) is still too much to ask from apologetics -- or too little to think of faith. Make it a Judas kiss in front of stuffed soldiers...

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