Free Will?

by ex-nj-jw 23 Replies latest jw friends

  • ex-nj-jw

    I just had a conversation with my sibling regarding free will. He's going on and on about how Jehoover gave us free will and that gives us the choice to accept him or not.

    Now, I will confess that I never paid attention at the meetings, didn't give a hoot about doctrine, the bible or whatever they were spewing from the platform so maybe that's why I don't get this. But if god gave us free will to choose whether or not to accept him, serve him, obey, worship whatever. Is it really free will? Because all the religious people I've come in contact with basically says the same thing. If you use your free will and choose not to serve god then he's gonna kill you or you won't make it to heaven or survive the Big A. "You can choose not to serve me but i'm gonna kill you if you don't"

    So how is that free will? Am I just misunderstanding this whole thing? I know this probably sounds like a stupid questions but I just don't get it.


  • Anti-Christ
    You can choose not to serve me but i'm gonna kill you if you don't"

    That's about right.

  • Quirky1

    There is nothing free in this world.

    Everything has a price. Even life itself.

    Just an out-of-the-box thought.


  • Hope4Others
    gave us free will and that gives us the choice to accept him or not.

    I have never really thought this is free will, except him or not, and the not means death. Somehow that seems a little off.


  • ex-nj-jw

    Well considering my brother is a JW he goes off on his high horse about everything and I have the tendancy to tune him out. So as I said it may just be that I can't wrap my head around it.

    Hell I can't wrap my head around the bible, god or anything having to do with religion. I guess I should just not even bother with trying to understand it, just gives me a headache.

    Thanks for responding.

  • ex-nj-jw
    I have never really thought this is free will, except him or not, and the not means death. Somehow that seems a little off

    Hope4, This is what I got from our conversation. He was talking about my nephew no longer wanting to be a JW and how that's why we were given free will to accept or not. It's up to us to make the choice god won't force us. But to me by saying if you don't serve me your dead that's not much of choice now is it?

  • Anti-Christ
    He was talking about my nephew no longer wanting to be a JW and how that's why we were given free will to accept or not. It's up to us to make the choice god won't force us. But to me by saying if you don't serve me your dead that's not much of choice now is it?

    I started a topic about free will and the bible, a lot of interesting comments. When you look at what the bible says you can see that our free will is flawed, we sin even if we don't want to so god set up the universe in a way that you are guilty of being born and that you are force to be imperfect. That is not free will. Ask your brother if he believes that the 144000 give up there free will.

  • easyreader1970

    The Witnesses teach that Jehovah allows relative free will, not total free will.

    They prefer to use the traffic analogy. You have relative free will in that you can go anywhere on the roads in your vehicle, but those roads have laws. If you break them, you are punished. This is from their Does God Care brochure, dated 2001:


    However, did God purpose for free will to be without limits? Imagine a busy city without any traffic laws, where everybody could drive in any direction at any speed. Would you want to drive under those conditions? No, that would be traffic anarchy and would surely result in many accidents.


    So too with God’s gift of free will. Unlimited freedom would mean anarchy in society. There have to be laws to guide human activities. God’s Word says: "Behave like free men, and never use your freedom as an excuse for wickedness." (1 Peter 2:16, JB) God wants free will to be regulated for the common good. He purposed for us to have, not total freedom, but relative freedom, subject to the rule of law.
  • Open mind
    Open mind

    One of my all time favorite articles from is called "Kissing Hank's Ass".

    I think you might enjoy it ex-nj.

    (It's even been made into a video on YouTube.)



    This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

    John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

    Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

    Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"

    John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."

    Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

    John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."

    Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

    Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

    Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

    John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

    Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

    Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

    Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"

    John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

    Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

    Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you."

    Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

    John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

    Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

    John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

    Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

    Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

    Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"

    John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

    Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

    John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the shit out of you."

    Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

    Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

    Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"

    John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

    Me: "Who's Karl?"

    Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

    Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

    John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

    From the Desk of Karl
    Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
    Use alcohol in moderation.
    Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
    Eat right.
    Hank dictated this list Himself.
    The moon is made of green cheese.
    Everything Hank says is right.
    Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
    Don't use alcohol.
    Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
    Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the shit out of you.

    Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

    Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

    Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

    John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

    Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

    Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

    Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

    Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

    Me: "How do you figure that?"

    Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

    Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

    John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

    Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

    John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

    Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

    Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

    Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

    John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

    Me: "We do?"

    Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

    Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

    John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

    Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

    Mary: She blushes.

    John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

    Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

    John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

    Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

    Mary: She looks positively stricken.

    John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

    Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

    Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

    John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

    Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

    Mary: She faints.

    John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

    With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

  • GoddessRachel

    Sounds like a trick to me... God says "you have a choice, but one of them is WRONG!" Um, how is that a choice? I think you can't wrap your head around it because it's circular JW logic. It's like when they tell you to believe what they tell you because they were the ones who told you and they are God's spokespeople and therefore it's the truth. Huh? Does your head hurt? Take two advils and stay away from the kingdom hall! Peace, Rachel

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