srry wrong thread.
God's Plan
by serotonin_wraith 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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serotonin_wraith
Perry,
You may have noticed morality has changed in society over the generations. That's why I don't feel it is set in stone. Take slavery - the Bible says it's fine, and for the first 1800 years of Christian history Christians thought it was fine. Do you think slavery is fine? I hope not. Why not? Is it because it can cause suffering? Yes, that's probably why you don't agree with it. The same reason I don't agree with it.
How about the rights of women? They're treated as second class citizens in the Bible, yet today women can hold the same positions as men, vote, etc. Our outlook changed. The words in the Bible didn't. Wouldn't you agree women should have the same rights as men?
And you think this is superior to the Ten Commandments?
Most definitely. Having one god takes away the rights of other cultures to worship how they want. Imagine if you were forced to worship another god. Not nice, is it?
No idols? What about the rights of other religious people who use idols in their worship? A totem pole, a statue of the Virgin Mary, whatever it is, forcing someone to stop is wrong. Not everyone follows your religion. Try to see the big picture. Do some travelling.
Who suffers if I say 'Oh my God!'? It's my right to say that if I like. If you feel you may cry about it, just think about how insignificant it is when you get to live forever and it becomes a distant memory.
Sabbath day? I'm all for taking a break from work, but if everyone did that things would go horribly wrong. How much suffering would there be if hospitals had to close, emergency plumbers couldn't work, police took the day off, nursing home staff left the elderly to fend for themselves, etc? I'm glad most people ignore it.
Honour your father and mother - good advice, as long as they're not trying to make you go through with a forced marriage, abusing you, etc. Even in the good rules there are areas of grey.
Don't murder - that's a good way to stop suffering and keep our species safe. What about if a police officer has to shoot to kill someone who may kill others? That fits in with my morality. Causing the least amount of suffering while keeping in mind our need to survive... Where does it fit in with the rule 'Don't murder'? It doesn't. There's more at work in your brain when you consider situations like this than what you read in the book.
Adultery - I agree with this one to an extent. If both partners want to be in a swinging relationship, that hurts no one. However, it can cause suffering if one of the couple don't know about it or if children are involved.
Don't steal - sure, good advice for the most part. How about if a father has to steal a loaf of bread to feed his starving family? That's allowed by my morality. Is it allowed by the rule 'Thou shalt not steal'?
Lying - I see nothing wrong with white lies. 'Do I look fat in this?' Try to be honest when faced with that question! We don't like to hurt people's feelings. Lies that can cause suffering are less acceptable. 'Your car engine needs three extra parts costing $2000' is a horrible thing to say if the engine is fine.
Don't covet what others have - If you steal it, that's bad. But simply wanting something someone else has? Well, that's how trade was born! You covet everytime you go shopping!
That's one version of the 10 commandments. Another version says not to cook a goat in its mother's milk. I'm sure I could think of much better rules than that jewel!
How do you determine if your species is threatened? Is it from scientists like Dawkins that determine this for you by fighting for the supression of certain thoughts and words like design? Surely he feels that words like "designer" threatens our species in the long run. But how does he know this? Where does he get this knowledge?
Mostly I know because it's common sense.
Teaching children to ignore facts is harmful to our species. Understanding evolution has allowed us to develop cures. As bacteria evolve to overcome antibiotics, we have to develop new antibiotics to combat the bacteria. That's just one example. The knowledge comes from evidence.
If politicians said something was a threat, I'd look at the evidence for their assessment. Based on that evidence, I could decide for myself whether I agreed or not.
how would you determine if you were causing suffering to others? Illegal drug dealers view themselves as providing pleasure to their customers. Their customers equally view the drugs they push into their veins as a source of pleasure. No suffering there as far as they are concerned.
I could see how they react or I could consider how I would feel in their shoes. If I understand I'd feel suffering, then it's likely they do too.
I would say drug dealers are more concerned about the money they get, but regardless, using drugs can lead to suffering. They can damage the body, even if there are short term benefits of pleasure. Some drugs relieve suffering with minimal effects to the welfare of the body - e.g. paracetemol.
What about just walking by someone in need and letting them die when you could help? I mean there is no species wide crisis here. And, you certainly would not be "causing" suffering. I guess it would not be your problem eh?
Imagine if everyone had that attitude. Suffering would be widespread! I'm a cog in the machine and most of us do our part to ease suffering in our little corner of the world. Imagine if every ant in the nest decided to stop working!
Also, I would suffer personally with guilt if I did leave someone in need, so I'd be helping ease my own suffering.
Hope that helps.
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Perry
Adultery - I agree with this one to an extent.
Don't steal - sure, good advice for the most part.
Lying - I see nothing wrong with white lies.
Mostly I know because it's common sense.
This isn't morality, it is making yourself God. You posit moral determination with yourself. How's that been working out for you in your personal life?
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serotonin_wraith
I'm accountable for my own actions. It's been working out quite well. I consider myself a good person. Thanks for asking.
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Perry
I consider myself a good person.
So does every other hell-bound person on this palnet. This is easily disproven btw.
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Perry
Adultery - I agree with this one to an extent.
Don't steal - sure, good advice for the most part.
Lying - I see nothing wrong with white lies.
Ever looked at a woman with lust while you were married? God says you already committed adultery if you did.
Ever stolen anything? Further, have you ever called the police when something was stolen from you? Surely justice would demand that you subject yorself to the same judgment that you subject others to, wouldn't you agree?
How do you know if what you told was a "white lie"? Who determines this? If we submitted all your "white lies" to a jury would they acquit? Have you ever known someone to deceive themselves when it was convenient for them? Have you ever done that? Have you ever told something other than a "white lie".
Your morality seems such that you can do whatever you want and still declare yourself "good". This is what is called an illusion. Even though we see evil and suffering in this world, God insists that there will be punishment for moral crimes. Certainly if there is a god worth worshipping he will not let crimes go unpunished, don't you agree?
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serotonin_wraith
The god of the Bible and I disagree on many things.
He wanted witches killed. I don't agree with that, because witches don't exist. It just means innocent people get killed.
Paul wanted women to remain quiet in churches. If he's inspired by God, I can only assume God wants women to remain quiet in churches. I see it as sexist. I don't agree with it.
God thinks slavery is okay. God thinks genocide is okay. God used to think burning animals alive was okay. God thinks if someone like Hitler repents on his deathbed and wants to follow Jesus, he gets to heaven, while someone like Anne Frank is burning merrily away because she didn't think Jesus came to save her.
Certainly if there is a god worth worshipping he will not let crimes go unpunished, don't you agree?
Luckily for me and Anne, there's no reason to think this god exists. If there was a god worth worshipping it wouldn't be so petty and unjust. There's nicer gods to choose from, and just as much chance for one of them to exist. I hope it's not fear that's keeping you a Christian deep down. A 'I'd better follow it, what if I'm wrong?' kind of attitude. That would be a shame.
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Perry
Certainly if there is a god worth worshipping he will not let crimes go unpunished, don't you agree?
Lots of red herrings in your post, all have been covered many times from a biblical perspective. You still didn't answer this question. Why?
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serotonin_wraith
Certainly if there is a god worth worshipping he will not let crimes go unpunished, don't you agree?
That may be a nice god to have around. A god that's completely fair. One that gives a good punishment (i.e. not an eternal one!) that fits the crime, if other humans haven't punished the criminal beforehand. Life would seem a bit fairer then.
But oh well, that's called wishful thinking, and I've already pointed out the Biblical god is anything but fair. Seriously, if your god is real, he'll be rewarding you for shutting off your mind to reason and being born at just the right time and place to accept his religion and torturing me for seeing there was no reason to believe in him over any other mythological god.
Of course it's all nonsense. I've shown you how I decide what's moral and I've shown you don't get your morals from the Bible. You pick parts you agree with, and in doing so you're showing you have a mind that knows the difference between right and wrong before you even pick up the book.
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Perry
This kept me laughing!
Here's your original posit:
Everything that happens is part of God's plan.
After you lose a debate here's your next posit:
Of course it's all nonsense.
You can't change your premise at each whim whenever you feel trapped. Well, you can but that is terribly cowardly, which is a trait that is generally thought of as unmanly.
First you say :
Some religious people will complain that they aren't getting special treatment (immunity from criticism, for example).
Who is begging for special treatment? You are free to conduct yourself however you wish and reap what you sow just like everyone else. Apparently you agree:
If a theist happens to be extremely nasty, I can say "F*ck off you ignorant f*ckwit."
What you cannot do is project your circular and dishonest reasoning and be immune from criticism yourself.
For instance, after I proved from your own words that you have no morals whatsoever, you simply delusionally state that:
I've shown you how I decide what's moral
You see this is how delusion works; it exists outside a person's awareness. For instance the definition is:
mo·ral·i·ty
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; Since you clearly demonstrated that your idea of right conduct changes with whatever your current whim is, then there is no way for you to declare yourself "good" as you have done. This makes sense to most people. It is pure logic.
But for others, instead of being ashamed and embarrassed of their perversions, they race to the finish line to be the first to declare moral defeat for themselves. When others seek to give them the badge of lunacy that they seem to so desparetly want, they object and say to the effect, that the definition of morality must change because they said so. In other words, in order for your thinking to have any validity at all, you must change the meaning of certain words in the English language.
Thankfully, this kind of thinking and juvenile sense of irresponsibility appeals to only a very small percentage of the population.
