Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 65/12 years = 5.42 years old
If that 12 lunar months are each counted as years in the totals given, does the above sound reasonable? I imagine that a counter is that 365 years old and still kicking sounds about the same, but the one is expressly written and the other is not.
I was reading something lately about the Genesis account and it was arguing that the lifespans were, well I'll just let you guys read it for yourself: http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/chronology.html
ENOCH & the Watchtower Society
by Honesty 24 Replies latest watchtower bible
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LayingLow
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choosing life
So, was this the first mercy killing? Which seems more likely? Did God put him to sleep or allow him to go to a different world?
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JCanon
He insisted that Enoch died, but could not produce Biblical evidence that it was so.
Interesting but inaccurate. The fact that the age of Enoch is given in the context of the ages the others died is sufficient reference that he died. "He was no more" is also an alternative reference that he died. So there is nothing in scripture that contradicts his death and at least two references consistent with death, though his death was unusual. Thus there is no foundation for venturing past "the obvious" here.
You have to consider the exceptional choice of terms here for referencing the death of the others, which is in the context of a natural death of old age. That was not the case for Enoch. If I say five family members died in their 80's and I had one family member who was killed in his 50s, I'm not implying that person didn't "die" just being more specific about the manner of death, since "died" without a more specific statement generally is taken to meant died naturally or due to sickness.
JC
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LayingLow
Hebrews 11:5-
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God:"
Hebrews 11:13-
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth"
If I had to guess I would have guessed that the first meant he wasn't dead, but the verse in 13 seems to indicate that he is.
Genesis 5:21-24-
"And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
So God translated Enoch. Aside from letting him skip the dying part of entering death I can't really figure out what else it could mean. If he was translated in space to another location he would have continued to walk with God and therefore his years walking with God couldn't have been summed up. I thought maybe he could be translated through time and then suddenly appear (maybe as one of the two witnesses in Revelation). If that were the case, he would be translated, would not have seen death, and wouldn't exist presently. With the exception of Hebrews 11:13 I would go with that.
I don't think the being translated through time would nullify Jesus statement that no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven. But there still is that Heb 11:13.
I actually intended to write this post proving that he wasn't currently dead but I'm leaning the opposite direction now. -
JCanon
Hi Tuesday. You're brilliant to notice this!!!
Damn, now I feel less original, I was setting up my tough questions for Jehovah's Witnesses and had this down as number 11. My question is basically if the soul cannot be separated from the body at death, and the heavenly hope was not available to humans until after Jesus died, and also no human body can enter into heaven what exactly happened to Enoch?
First of all, we know from the Scripture that many of old will be in the kingdom, including Daniel and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! Plus Hebrews mentions many of the ancient ones of old who are part of Heavenly Jerusalem and Enoch is specifically mentioned:
5 By faith E´noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well. 39 And yet all these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise, 40 as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.
So we are not in doubt about Enoch being part of the Bride Class, nor Abraham or any of the others. In fact specifically note Luke 13:28:
28 There is where [ YOUR ] weeping and the gnashing of [ YOUR ] teeth will be, when YOU see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside.
So. We know from Scripture that Enoch and Abraham and many others understood they would be in the kingdom, but they didn't get anointed by holy spirit like those after Pentecost. But that is just a technicality. What YOU need here is HOW these would get into the kingdom. The easiest way for me to explain it is what happened when Jesus died. Now once Jesus arrived, everybody was pushing to stay alive until after Jesus died and ascended since after Pentecost you could get sealed into the kingdom. Those dying before then, could not get sealed. But when Jesus died, there was an earthquake and the memorial tombs were opened and some of the "saints" that had already died came back to life and came into Jerusalem. But note, once they were resurrected again and at least survived until Pentecost, then they could get anointed!!! Therefore, the only thing preventing any others from getting anointed, is simply to be resurrected back into the flesh first!! That is, however, precisely how the first resurrection works. EVERYBODY IS RESURRECTED BACK INTO THE FLESH to rule with Christ for the 1000 years, through Satan's last test, and then Judgment Day. Nobody goes to heven until death is destroyed forever, which is only when the last wicked person is throne into the lake of fire and everybody else has partaken of the trees of life and have eternal life. Therefore, the way Enoch and Abraham and others get into the kingdom is when they are resurrected back into the flesh first. It is as if they had just died a few weeks or months before Jesus died and then when Jesus died got resurrected to be present at Pentecost. So that's how that works in actuality. Very astute observation, though. In this way, the Bride Class includes everyone Jesus and Jehovah especially loved. Can you imagine the Bride Class not including Daniel or David or Abraham or Enoch? No way. They would not deprive themselves of that great pleasure of having them up in heaven with them! So it's not that they don't get the heavenly prize, it's just that they didn't realize the spiritual anointing, which only was possible after Jesus' death and after Pentecost. Therefore, of specific note, John the Baptist will also obviously be resurrected as well back into the flesh and become part of the kingdom. It is understandable, however, in expressing the difference it makes to be anointed or just promised, because John is used as an example of the magnitude of greatness involved, that a least one anointed into the kingdom would have attained a greatness superior to even that of John the Baptist, who Jesus called the greatest of all the prophets. But that just contrasted John at the time of his death and the rank of anointed one at the time of their death or upon beomcing anointed into the kingdom. But that did not exclude John later becoming anointed once he was resurrected back into the flesh. JWs, of course, are CLUELESS and confused over this, some of it understanably, but partly because they believe as the antichrist that Christ would not return in the flesh, when the Bible indicates that he would. I mean, would it really be a "second" coming to the earth if he was not in human form again? And does it make sense 144,000 (or 1,440,000) king-priests will be far away up in heaven trying to rule for 1000 years? That is, rather than being on the earth? It would make more sense if they materialized bodies and came down to the earth to have hands on management in that case. But turns out they simply are in the flesh with Christ. All ordinary men, just as Christ. That's why 1 Corininthians 15 characterizes the first phase of the resurrection as being "sown in corruption" or "sown in weakness" or "sown into a physical body" before becoming incorruptible:
44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body..... 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual.
Very basic here. First is the PHYSICAL, then the SPIRITUAL. The spiritual does not happen until death itself is no more and that is way down the line on the last day of Judgment Day! In the meantime, we know the first resurrection occurs before the millennium. So the first part that is physical, lasts for 1000+ years!!!! During this physical first-stage of the resurrection though, all the faithful witnesses of old get anointed, just like those who came to life right after Jesus died. They died again, but at least they got anointed with holy spirit, thus realizing their "promise." ISN'T THAT NEAT?!!!!! It'w wonderful!!! But now you can see, as prophesied, that the WTS is like a barren wasteland as far as spiritual understanding and knowledge. They have to make excuses around all those scriptures that show that Enoch and Abraham and others are definitely part of the heavenly calling!! Even sciptures that directly say that like Luke! The "sons of the kingdom" are definitely those of the heavenly calling, yet they are surprised to see Abraham in heaven with those from western parts and eastern parts who have taken their place!!! So there is no way around it if those who replace them up in heaven are with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that those three must be up in heaven too. That's a direct reference. Even Hebrews says they would not be "made perfect apart from us", because ALL of them TOGETHER will get their spiritual bodies. One last scripture emphasizing this is 1 Thessalonians where Paul was noting in regard to the concern of some who knew they would die and be resurrected, whether they would get their spiritual bodies ahead of those who were alive at the time of Christ's second coming. Paul explains that FIRST, the dead rise and THEN all of them together wil be caugt up to heaven and meet Christ in the air. Thus even those persons of old would be "made perfect" at the same time the rest of those anointed would be:
16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.
That is, perfectly consistent with 1 Corinthians 15, everybody in the first resurrection come back as humans, imperfect humans during the last days. Those who are not already anointed, like Abraham and Enoch will get anointed and sealed at this time. Then AFTER this, they all get perfected and become angels. Only "after" is not a couple minutes but 1000+ years! So it's ALL THERE. The Bible answers all these questions. But you must be complemented to seeing the question first and seeking the answer. Some never notice. So now, you have your answer. Great, huh? Isn't the Bible wonderful? Of course, it's a dark place without holy spirit, certainly, so we must thank Jehovah for granting us with understanding. But we must first ask the question, no? JC
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JCanon
I don't think the being translated through time would nullify Jesus statement that no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven. But there still is that Heb 11:13.
I actually intended to write this post proving that he wasn't currently dead but I'm leaning the opposite direction now.I think you're addressing a "technical" area that is not answered in scripture. Those who have died and need to be resurrected are likened to "seeds". That is, they are in a certain state, not connected with being in heaven nor alive or conscious particularly in the flesh. But I don't want to limit God's choice to temporarily resurrect someone. For instance, Jesus had a conversation with Elijah and Moses, right? Both were said to be "caught up" like Enoch, so.... Who knows what unique state apart from an actual angel or being in the flesh Jehovah allows?
Even so, see my related post that ultimately, in the end, when all the faithful ones of old are resurrected first back into the flesh, they can get anointed by holy spirit and sealed into the kingdom after that. The only thing preventing them from getting sealed into the kingdom is being alive after Christ dies, which is no problem for Jehovah! He just brings them back into the flesh and anoints them at that time. That's how they get into the kingdom. Those who are alive after Pentecost realize that "promise" in a greater sense when they are directly anointed into the kingdom. That's what the older ones did not experience, so that's the difference between the two groups. But for the faithful of old, they just get anointed later when they come back. They are not excluded from the kingdom.
Now step back and realize how much sense this makes. Would Moses and Abraham and Enoch and Daniel and even John the Baptist miss out on the greatest human opportunity of all time, just because they were born at the wrong time? I don't think so. No, in fact. It only requires them to be resurrected back into the flesh to get anointed into the kingdom and that is what happens. The hand of God is not short.
JC
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WTWizard
And for what was Enoch persecuted? For doing as Baghead wanted, that's what. So what would have happened had he instead minded his business? Baghead would have had him killed anyway.
So much for Jehovah Baghead being righteous.
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hamsterbait
One translation said Enoch was "TRANSFERRED" so "AS not to see death."
I remember an old 1930s books saying God granted him a vision of such ecstacy, he did not notice he had died. In effect he will think he was time shifted into the new World.
HB
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restrangled
Have you read the book of Enoch? It's fascinating!
r.
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Leolaia
Actually, I don't think there ever was any claim in the whole stream of Enochic tradition of a "persecuted Enoch". From what I recall, Enoch was commissioned to announce divine judgment to the Watchers and intercede for them (when they gave their pleas for forgiveness). And similarly with the giants, they came to him with their terrible dreams they received prophesying of the Flood, and Enoch told them what would happen to them, and they were quite afraid of God's wrath coming to them. That is what is found in the Enochic books that predate the Christian tradition (and which were influential on it), e.g. the Book of Watchers, the Book of Giants, and the "Animal Apocalypse" from the Book of Dreams.