Losch hawaii zone visit

by isaacaustin 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Before this talk was given the chairman said the audience could make audio recordings for their personal use but specifically requested that they not make additional copies. Here are notes from someone who was in attendance.

    This has already been posted but here are someone elses notes:

    WHAT THE NEAR FUTURE HOLDS
    January 27, 2008 (Hawaii zone visit) – Gerrit Losch
    Although we cannot know our individual future, we do know mankind's immediate future (2 Peter 3:17 "You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advanced knowledge…"). God keeps us informed and He cannot lie (Titus 1:2).
    What will occur in the near future?
    · There will be an international statement or situation where people will cry out "Peace and Security" (1/15/03 Watchtower). This has not yet occurred. We don't know if it will be a desire for peace or a belief that peace has been achieved.
    · Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled (every day 3,000,000 hours are spent in the ministry).
    · The Great Tribulation has 3 stages: 1) Destruction of Babylon the Great, 2) Period of time in between Babylon's destruction and Armageddon, and 3) Armageddon.
    · 1) Disgusting thing standing in the holy place (Matthew 24:15, Luke 21:20)
    o This occurred in 66 CE under Cestius Gallus when Jerusalem's wall was almost undermined. The Roman armies were disgusting because of their idolatrous ensigns. In 70 CE General Titus came to destroy the city.
    o Unfaithful Jerusalem pictures unfaithful Christendom. Political nations within the UN will devastate Christendom, but it has not yet begun taking its threatening position against false religion (5/1/99 Watchtower, page 16).
    § Terrorists, such as Al-Qaeda, are targeting political nations, not religious organizations.
    o Governments will confiscate all religious bank accounts and property. They will probably imprison clergymen and possibly kill them.
    o Unless those days were cut short (Matthew 24:22), no flesh will be saved. This referred to the days in 66 CE (not 70 CE). Therefore, the modern application is at the beginning of the Great Tribulation – the destruction of Babylon the Great (not Armageddon). Unless those days were shortened, no flesh (true Christians) would be saved.
    · 2) Between 66-70 CE the Jews were divided into factions within Jerusalem. Food ran out and people were prohibited from leaving the city. This occurred "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29), referring to the destruction of Babylon the Great.
    o The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven. The 2/15/94 Watchtower, page 20, indicates that this will likely be frightening phenomena in the sky more impressive than what was observed in Jerusalem.
    o Josephus recorded that a comet appeared in Jerusalem in the first century and remained for 1 year (very unusual).
    o Matthew 24:30 and Luke 21: 25, 26 indicates that men will beat themselves in lamentation and become faint out of fear. This happens during the Great Tribulation. Don't apply Luke 21:26 about men being "faint out of fear" to today.
    o Luke 21:25 mentions "the anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation". Brother Losch said this could also have a literal fulfillment (e.g. tsunamis).
    o Luke 21: 27 describes mankind as seeing "the Son of man coming in a cloud". This sign is in heaven (not on the earth). Therefore it is not the sign of Jesus' presence, which has many facets here on earth today. Rather, everyone will recognize that what they are seeing is supernatural.
    o Matthew 24:34 "this generation will be no means pass away until all these things occur". The anointed Christians still living will see the fulfillment of all the things foretold regarding the Great Tribulation, including Jesus' execution. However we do not know if they will survive Armageddon and enter the New World.
    o There will be a final attack on God's people by the King of the North before Armageddon. We still cannot identify the King of the North and should not speculate (Daniel book page 281). We may not know until the attack on true Christians actually begins. This attack will probably parallel Gog's attack described at Ezekiel 38.
    · 3) At Armageddon, everyone will recognize that it is divine judgment (Revelation 1:7 "every eye will see him" ).
    o Zechariah 14:12 "There will be a rotting away of one's flesh, while one is standing upon one's feet; and one's very eyes will rot away in their sockets, and one's very tongue will rot away in one's mouth". Jehovah may use radiation to destroy the wicked. ( Yes, Brother Losch actually said "radiation").
    o The final separation of the sheep and goats will take place at this time.
    We must be prepared. At an hour that we do not think it to be, the Son of man is coming (Matthew 24:44).
    · Matthew 24:17 "Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house". How could he flee without coming down from the roof? He would take the outside stairs or ladder, not bothering to go down through the house.
    o We must be willing to leave everything behind! The first century Christians had to run – it meant the loss of absolutely everything. But their flesh or lives were saved.
    o We will lose our homes, businesses, etc. We may be tested by how we view material things.
    o The Christians in the first century fled to the mountains. Jehovah's mountain-like organization will offer protection (God's Kingdom could also be the mountain that we flee to).
    Some doubt the nearness of the end because there are still so many to reach:
    · There are 1.3 billion people in China (although we are preaching there)
    · 1.0 billion in India where 80% have never been witnessed to
    · 1.0 billion Muslims (although we are legal in the largest Muslim country, Indonesia, which has a population of 50 million more people than Russia)
    But Jesus said that we would by no means complete the circuit of cities (Matthew 10:23). He said this after explaining what they should do when people persecute them. We don't know if Jehovah will open up other territories. He could do so in a way we never imagined. Regardless, we know that each life is precious to Him and we should work hard to preach to everyone.
    The end is near. Revelation 17:11 described the UN as the eighth and final king. It has already lasted 3 times longer than it did before going into the abyss (as the League of Nations).
    After Armageddon there will be a lot of work to do. Anyone who thinks the Thousand Years will be a long vacation is mistaken. We will have to cleanse the earth (Bible describes people traveling the earth to bury the dead) and prepare for the resurrection. New estimate is a resurrection of 30 billion people. Can you imagine 30 billion people reappearing on one day? No, it's not reasonable. We can assume that there will be a gradual resurrection (Insight book estimates 200-300 years), one generation at a time. This will make it possible to communicate with the previous generation. We will need to provide food and lodging for the newly resurrected ones. There may be special houses where the resurrections occur (those who died at sea won't be swimming to shore). We don't know if the dead will return with clothing or not, but we do know that they will be completely restored physically (no missing limbs, etc.). We can look forward to growing back hair, teeth, etc. Some animals already manifest such abilities (giant squid can grow back new arms and Amazonian fish grow new teeth over and over).
    Do we really believe the end is near? Our decisions show what we truly believe. Don't seek great things for yourself (Jeremiah 45: 4, 5). This system is passing away. Rather seek first the kingdom. Jehovah has promised to preserve our souls as spoil and has offered us the opportunity to live as long as He does. What a privilege!
    (There were 7,204 that attended this special talk at a rented convention center in Honolulu and 3,262 that were tied in at 21 other locations on the Hawaiian islands
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Thanks for that, very very interesting! Please somebody tape-record this for everyone else....

    Here is a pretty interesting statement in the notes:

    The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven. The 2/15/94 Watchtower, page 20, indicates that this will likely be frightening phenomena in the sky more impressive than what was observed in Jerusalem.

    As discussed in earlier threads, the Society is shifting towards more literal interpretations of a number of apocalyptic elements that they had henceforth understood figuratively. I found this citation of a 1994 Watchtower rather unusual, as I did not know that the Society had already changed their position on the cosmic signs. Indeed, they were already suggesting a dual figurative/non-figurative fulfillment of Matthew 24:29 back in 1994:

    *** w94 2/15 p. 20 "Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?" ***

    In what sense will ‘the sun be darkened, the moon not give its light, the stars fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens be shaken’? Doubtless, in the early part of the great tribulation, many luminaries—prominent clergymen of the religious world—will have been exposed and eliminated by "the ten horns" mentioned at Revelation 17:16. No doubt political powers too will have been shaken up. Could there also be frightening events in the physical heavens? Quite likely, and far more awe-inspiring than those described by Josephus as occurring near the end of the Jewish system. We know that in the ancient past, God displayed his power to cause such cataclysmic effects, and he can do so again.—Exodus 10:21-23; Joshua 10:12-14; Judges 5:20; Luke 23:44, 45.

    What I really wonder now is if Losch is continuing with this intermediate dual understanding or whether he is now abandoning the older figurative interpretation altogether. If so, the 1994 statement would be a good example of a gradual change in which the new understanding is introduced alongside the old one and the two co-exist for a while. Then when the old view is dropped, they can point to the previous Watchtower and say that they had already had this view all along.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    I compared this point by point to the thread on Losch's Australia visit and many of the points were exactly the same. I noticed no real differences or contradictions between the 2 sets of notes..only the notes i posted below gave more details.

  • VM44
    VM44

    <strong>Before this talk was given the chairman said the audience could make audio recordings for their personal use but specifically requested that they not make additional copies.</strong>

    <p>OK. Can someone make some additional copies and put them online?</p>

  • VM44
    VM44

    Before this talk was given the chairman said the audience could make audio recordings for their personal use but specifically requested that they not make additional copies.

    OK. So could someone make some additional copies and put them online?

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Hmm...feels like 1970 all over again.

    We don't know if the dead will return with clothing or not, but we do know that they will be completely restored physically (no missing limbs, etc.).

    Well, I'm glad he's put to rest all the rumors about whether the resurrected will be modestly covered when they come back. I was worried. But since they won't marry nor be given in marriage, will they have genitalia?

    We can look forward to growing back hair, teeth, etc. Some animals already manifest such abilities (giant squid can grow back new arms and Amazonian fish grow new teeth over and over).

    Yes! Humans with squid arms and shark teeth! I've always wanted squid arms and shark teeth! Do I gotta die first to get them?

  • blondie
    blondie

    What has the WTS said in the past about when the prophecy about the disgusting thing standing in a holy place? First as having already happened in 1919.

    ***

    w825/15p.16pars.17-18TheSignsoftheTimes—WhatDoTheyMeantoYou?***

    What, then, is the "disgusting thing"? We are told to look for this "standing in a holy place." Do we see the modern-day fulfillment?

    18

    In modern times a "disgusting thing" opposed to God’s kingdom and far mightier than Imperial Rome stands in a "holy place." It is the U.N., made up now of 157 nations and including superpowers that possess enough nuclear armaments to blast mankind off the face of the earth many times over. This successor to the League of Nations is "disgusting" to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and his disciples because it presumes to stand in the place of God’s kingdom in the hands of his installed King Jesus Christ, in the heavens. (Matthew 5:35; Mark 13:14) But Christendom also claims to have a "holy place." It is her realm of operation that has already been taken over in large sections of the earth by radical members of the U.N. Soon Christendom’s religious systems, and any claims she makes to being a "holy place," will be desolated just as completely as was the anti-Christian Jewish system in 70 C.E. As Revelation 17:5, 16, 17 shows, all segments of false religion worldwide—"Babylon the Great"—will be devastated at that same time, preliminary to the war at Armageddon, the finale of the "great tribulation."—Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21.

    ***

    w8212/15p.30DoYouRemember?***

    What

    isthe"holyplace"thatisinvadedbythe"disgustingthing"thatcausesdesolation?

    The "holy place" is the "heavenly Jerusalem" represented by faithful anointed Christians on earth. But religious leaders, by placing the United Nations as a substitute for God’s Kingdom, have in effect made this man-made makeshift stand in the "holy place." This is a "disgusting thing" in God’s sight. Also, Christendom claims to have a "holy place" representing her religious field of operation. Today, the United Nations stands as a threat to this "holy place" of Christendom due to the action taken by many atheistic nations. God’s prophetic word shows that desolation will result from such confrontation. (Revelation 17:16)—11/15, pages 5, 6.

    BUT CHANGED IT TO THIS IN 1999 AS A FUTURE EVENT

    ***

    w995/1p.17pars.15-16"LettheReaderUseDiscernment"***

    Revelation depicts "a scarlet-colored wild beast" that exists for a time, disappears, and then returns. (Revelation 17:3, 8) This beast is supported by world rulers. Details supplied in the prophecy help us to identify this symbolic beast as a peace organization that came into existence in 1919 as the League of Nations (a "disgusting thing") and that is now the United Nations. Revelation 17:16, 17 shows that God will yet put it into the hearts of certain human rulers who are prominent in this "beast" to desolate the world empire of false religion. That attack marks the outbreak of the great tribulation.

    16

    Since the start of the great tribulation is yet future, is the "standing in a holy place" still ahead of us? Evidently so. While "the disgusting thing" made its appearance early in this century and has, thus, existed for decades, it will take a position in a unique way "in a holy place" in the near future.

    As to the millions that haven't been and won't be "witnessed" to by jws:

    *** w00 1/15 p. 13 par. 17 "Keep on the Watch" ***Nevertheless, the Bible does not state that Jehovah will wait until every individual on earth has received a personal witness. Rather, the good news must be preached to Jehovah’s satisfaction. Then the end will come.—Compare Matthew 10:23.

    *** w97 8/15 p. 14 par. 11 Living for Today or for an Eternal Future?

    ***True, untouched territories still exist, and perhaps in Jehovah’s due time, a door of opportunity will open. (1 Corinthians 16:9) Still, Jesus’ words recorded at Matthew 10:23 are sobering: "You will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives." While the good news will surely be announced throughout the earth, we will not in person reach all parts of the earth with the Kingdom message before Jesus "arrives" as Executioner.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Come back JCanon, all is forgiven.

    HS

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I love how they give the impression that they know so much, so the GB/FDS should
    be fully trusted.

    The number of resurrections, how it would take place- the order of such a thing.
    "Why, they must be receiving Holy Spirit to know all that stuff." HA HA.

    All that work to do after Armageddon- I sure I hope I die of old age in this system of
    things before the end. I don't want to get involved in all that work.
    Of course, it gives incentive to make elder, so a prince can be in charge of some
    aspect of the work.

    Okay, that is the answer. Be an elder, grab your mansion early in the first days
    after Armageddon and take charge. The GB and their chronies will either be gone
    to heaven or dying, so they can't stop me. I will picnic with tigers and kick beachballs
    against elephants while I supervise grave-digging slackers who couldn't make elder.
    We will milk that job for hundreds of years.

  • AlphaOmega
    AlphaOmega
    Before this talk was given the chairman said the audience could make audio recordings for their personal use but specifically requested that they not make additional copies. Here are notes from someone who was in attendance.

    Well, maybe someone could upload their talk and let US make copies

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