Issue Number 2.... Incorrect Predictions.

hotchocolate

Okay, just to re-introduce myself, I was raised in the truth, regular pioneered for years, and am a member in good standing with my congregation. I have just recently been shocked to realise that I actually have some doubts about the truth.

It helps for me to focus on one point at a time, and to write down my thoughts in a logical sequence. So this is point number two. I hope this all makes sense, I welcome any feedback you might have. :-) I'm still trying to get my own head around it.

SO

A huge issue for me is the society's history of incorrect predictions.

Most people here probably know about these, but I have to say, I am a third generation witness who has deeply studied the Bible my whole life, and I had not come across about 75% of these predictions until I specifically started looking for them. So, in case some are unaware, I'll outline a few incorrect dates published by the witnesses.

- The presence of Jesus started in 1874.
- The battle of Armageddon was marked for 1914.
- The faithful men of old would be resurrected to earth in 1925. (And the witnesses bought a beautiful house for them to live in, in San Diego)
- It would be "fitting for God to end man's misery" in 1975.
- The generation that saw 1914 would not pass away until the end comes.

There are many other now-abandoned teachings that I have some problems with, one of them particularly being that Russell measured an Egyptian pyramid to calculate prophetic dates FOR 35 YEARS. (Proclaimers pg 201)

With a respectful attitude, I took this information to my elders. The response I received was that these predictions did not class as false prophecy. They are merely incorrect interpretations of Scripture. The example they used was the one at Acts 1:6 where the apostles asked Jesus "Are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" They feel that this shows that God's true servants can often be mistaken. But, with all respect, I have a problem with this. I feel we are talking about two very different situations. The Biblical one is of an apostle who did not yet understand the kingdom, and so he humbly asked Jesus. If that same apostle had decided that he KNEW the kingdom was being restored at that time, and had taken it upon himself to claim understanding and to begin teaching this belief to the early Christians, I can imagine Jesus' response might have been somewhat different.

The elders also mentioned Proverbs 4:18 which most of you probably know well, "the light is getting brighter and brighter". But I can't help but notice that this scripture only mentions light, not dark. Truth, not untruth. The light gets brighter. Not brighter, then dark, then brighter again.

But one thing the elders were clear on was that the witnesses have never acted in the role of a prophet. So then, what is a prophet?

Well the first online dictionary definition I clicked on described a prophet this way:
Prophet \Proph"et\, n. [F. proph{'e}te, L. propheta, fr. Gr. literally, one who speaks for another, especially, one who speaks for a god and interprets his will to man, fr. to say beforehand; for, before to say or speak [1913 Webster].

Okay. So I just feel - the definition of a prophet should not be determined by the group or people who are being questioned. But in any case, to go further on this point of "What IS a false prophet?" I looked at the instances of how this term is used in the Bible and came up with these scriptures:

In speaking to a false prophet in Acts 13:10 Paul said: “O man full of every sort of fraud and every sort of villainy, you son of the Devil, you enemy of everything righteous, will you not quit distorting the right ways of Jehovah?" So distortion of the ways of God is one sign of a false prophet. Interestingly, the original Greek word "K'yri-os" in this scripture literally meaning "Lord" has been translated in the NWT as "Jehovah."

The second scripture I looked at was Matthew 7:15. “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]. 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

So firstly, by their fruits you will know them. I know as witnesses, we believe that this fruitage is demonstrated by our love, not going to war, preaching etc. And this is valid. But I think that there are probably just as many people that would argue that they feel they have seen "worthless fruit" from the witnesses. For example, the survivors of child abuse whose claims were invalidated by disbelief or by discouragement in following the appropriate channels for justice through the "higher authorities" (Romans 13:1) But in fact this scripture is specifically discussing "False Prophets". So, the "fruits" could likely be in relation to prophecy.

Secondly, this false prophet to many people would seem innocent and trustworthy.

Thirdly, these ones would "prophesy" "expel demons" and "perform powerful works". And they would be earnest. So who does this scripture apply to?

Well we could look for any person or organisation who makes future predictions, who claims to release people from the power of Satan and his demons, and who is involved heavily in their works. (BTW I am just re-phrasing this scripture, I don't claim any special understanding to know who this scripture refers to)

And the final and most powerful scripture for me was one I came across while sitting in the meeting. I was looking at the back of the Bible, under the section "False Prophets" when I saw something like "How to determine a false prophet" and the scripture Deut 18:20-22;

20 “‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’

When I read this, I got goosebumps. If the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. I just don't think the Bible could be any clearer, you know?

So these are my thoughts. Feel free to respond, agree or disagree. :-) This is pretty scary stuff for a lifetime witness.

x

WTWizard

They are false prophets. The fact is that the whole religion is a scam. They took a date that was a few years out, and predicted that the end would come then so that they could scare people into joining. When that date came and nothing happened, they simply erased that date and picked another a few years out again, repeating the process.

And they are still at it today. While they do not have specific dates, they are always talking a couple of years out at most. And, since 2006 they have been talking as if it were imminent. They were going to start the Great Tribulation with that NR37, which did nothing. Then they were supposed to be in the new order by the end of 2007, which is long gone. They banned college (again), and are about to take a hard line toward having children (similar to 1969). And, just like then, they are going to fail again. I am looking at 2014 as the next bombed prediction.

Witness 007

Hello Pioneer buddy, {I did it for 10 years.}

Witnesses use double talk and white-wash the past...but as you said if you foretell a future date for Armagedon and say you speak for Jehovah and the date is worked out from the bible...and nothing happens...your a false prophet!! If you stood up in 1970 and said you didn't believe that Armagedon would come in 1975 you would be acused of apostasy! Also Rutherford before he died said "Fascist Catholics would take over the world and then Armagedon would come during World War 2." {book-"Enemies" + Booklet -"Fascism or Freedom"} Nathan Knorr sqaushed this prophecy as soon as he came to power in late 1942.....look it up it's very interesting.

hotchocolate

Oh I forgot to add my last scripture, Mark 13:21...

21 “Then, too, if anyone says to YOU, ‘See! Here is the Christ,’ ‘See! There he is,’ do not believe [it]. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones. 23 YOU, then, watch out; I have told YOU all things beforehand.

So from this I think it's obvious that a prophet (or false prophet) INCLUDES those that interpret scripture.

(Like I needed to add to that post) :-)

x

besty

But one thing the elders were clear on was that the witnesses have never acted in the role of a prophet.

This is a complete lie on their part - either that or they are significantly under-informed.

I will get WT references for you later. They blatantly refer to themselves as God's prophet.

Would you still be able to go back to them with WT quotes? Try this promise from the Creator for starters....(if this isn't fulfilling the definition of a prophet - speaking on behalf of God and interpreting His will to man - then I don't know what is)

Awake! masthead from March 1988 until October 22 1995

Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.

besty

God knows whats going on with the formatting - its dropping my quote in above my own post....

stillajwexelder

Yes dates -607BCE and Earthquakes did it for me

prophecor

Interesting read, Hot Chocolate. Looking forward to other's responses.

hotchocolate

Ha ha Besty... Don't worry mate, I worked it out. ;-)

The whole "we never prophesied" thing really to me is just nit-picking. I mean, it's not hard to work out. You predicted the future. You prophesied. Own it. (Yeah a bit of Dr Phil in there)

Hey I think I'm starting to fire up! haha

hotchocolate

BTW I've seen the 72 WT article about the "prophet". The elder I spoke to was quite well-informed. Nice guy. Open minded in fact, and newly appointed, there's hope for him yet... :-)

Issue Number 2.... Incorrect Predictions.

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