If "You Think Darwin Sounds Like A Nazi, There Is A Connection"
by BurnTheShips 57 Replies latest jw friends
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BurnTheShips
Uninformed public opinion is what (as so often) remains. Where are the facts?
After looking at some info, including Awakened's responses, I see that Campolo's article is f*%ing shredded to bits. It is not EVEN ACCURATE. I wish I had known this before I posted it as a thread.
Burn
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Narkissos
BTS,
The first part of your article about made my point: Nietzsche's work had to be perverted by its worst enemies (the Anti-Semitic party and its progeny) to suit Nazism. It's rather strange that after reading it (I suppose) you chose to highlight one second-hand, unlocalised "quote" to make your point -- rather than one with ascertained authenticity and checkable context.
I would add that branding Nietzsche a nihilistic philosopher runs against his explicit thought. Wherever Nietzsche mentions "nihilism" he strongly rejects it. And to him the worst expressions of nihilism are Christianity and its socialistic emanations, which do not accept and welcome life as it is, but instead choose a "God," or an "ideal," that is not.
Of course Nietzsche (and perhaps Darwin) as (mis-)read by the Nazis reinforced Nazism; but it is also true of Christian writers like Martin Luther...
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Rapunzel
BTS- Narkissos did not say that Nietzsche's thinking was "benign". In fact, he states that Nietzsche penned some dangerous ideas. Nietzsche's writings are especially dangerous when taken out of context. Nietzsche's writing is highly aphoristic; and, as a thinker, he is un-systematic. Therefore he resists any facile summarization. However, he was most assuredly an anti-Nazi thinker. Narkissos was spot on; Nazi ideology was anathema to Nietzsche's philosophy [and vice versa]. Neitzsche cannot be understood outside of his historical and cultural context. His thought must also be considered as forming part of an ancient continuum of thought - materialism, which goes back to ancient Greece. Nietzsche wrote about the 'spectre of nihilism" haunting Europe at the end of the nineteenth century, but at the same time, he despaired of this nihilism. He did not revel in it. With Nietzsche, context is everything, as it is with the Bible, the Koran, Darwin or Freud. All of these writings and philosohical systems can be - and have been- maliciously abused, with horrific consequences. The Bible and the Koran have been maliciously abused throughout the centuries.To quote Nietzsche we inherit both the wisdom and the madness of a thousand generations.
And while I appreciate that the Inquirer article was a newspaper column, and not a peer-reviewed journal, I would still appreciate citations and page references. To tell the truth, I find the article highly suspicious. If you read carefully, not only are there no page references, there are no quotes regarding Darwin's supposedly racist ideas. Campolo does not offer so much as one single quote by Darwin that could be construed as racist. Campolo puts none of his [Campolo's] accusations in quotes. Thus, we are left with nothing but - at best - Campolo's subjective interpretations.
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Awakened07
After looking at some info, including Awakened's responses, I see that Campolo's article is f*%ing shredded to bits. It is not EVEN ACCURATE. I wish I had known this before I posted it as a thread.
Burn
I have to commend you for this.
It's an easy enough mistake to make. There could still be valid sources out there though - I wouldn't mind, as long as they're substantiated.
Burn - I (as did you I think) grew up in a religious organization that I believed could not lie. I may have been overly naive, but I actually thought and believed that the magazines could be trusted 100%, be it on scientific or religious (or other) subjects. I thought God somehow inspired them, although perhaps not as directly as with the Bible.
It was therefore a severe blow to my faith when I found out how the Watchtower had misquoted (or quoted out of context) scientists to prove their point, when the context would show that the scientists offered their explanations just after the selected quote (and that they obviously didn't disagree with their own theories or hypothesis).
Since then, I have researched a lot, and regrettably I must say that I have seen creationists from various other denominations use the same tactics. It's almost at the point now that when I read something negative about evolution from a creationist source, I immediately think there's something wrong there; quote-mining, misrepresentation, half-truths, deliberately botched "scientific" experiments (dating methods for instance), to outright lying. And unfortunately - it is almost invariably the case, when I check both sides of the argument. Which is ironic, considering how these people are so-called Christians.
I guess religious people will say then that JWs spoiled every religion for me, I threw the baby out with the bathwater etc. But I don't see a lot of religions or religious people making an effort to 'unspoil' it; usually quite the opposite. You're (sometimes) an exception though. I think you are sincere.
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funkyderek
BurnTheShips:
After looking at some info, including Awakened's responses, I see that Campolo's article is f*%ing shredded to bits. It is not EVEN ACCURATE. I wish I had known this before I posted it as a thread.
Very commendable of you to admit you were wrong. However, you should have been more careful to begin with. The lack of quotes in the article should have given you a clue. If Darwin had really proposed "the elimination of 'the negro and Australian peoples'" then it would be trivially easy to quote the part of Origin where he did so. Having not read the entire book, I searched for the phrase "the negro and Australian peoples" only to discover that no such phrase appears anywhere in Darwin's work. I had similar difficulties finding anything to suggest Darwin favoured the "extermination of races" or any sort of eugenic program.
What Tony Campolo appears to have done here is simply to make up out of whole cloth lies about Darwin knowing that his intended readership would be far too eager to believe to check his quotes for accuracy. Burn, you're too smart to align yourself with such people. In future, check your sources!
Darwin's entire works are online in a searchable format at http://darwin-online.org.uk/
And, of course, Happy Darwin Day!
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BurnTheShips
, I searched for the phrase "the negro and Australian peoples" only to discover that no such phrase appears anywhere in Darwin's work.
I did the same. I text-searched Origin and other works.
Not. One. Mention. I also did "Australian" and "Negro" individually, and nothing even close to what the source article asserts was actually in the text.
Liar.
What Tony Campolo appears to have done here is simply to make up out of whole cloth lies about Darwin knowing that his intended readership would be far too eager to believe to check his quotes for accuracy.
Or not properly vet the sources. Either way it is screwed up. If I were to put something out for publication where thousands or millions of eyes will be on it I will make damn well make sure the info is at least factually accurate. This sort of thing snowballs. The article has spawned dozens of blog entries and the untruth will just go on and on.
I felt pretty disgusted yesterday.
Burn
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hillary_step
Burn,
One of the classic errors people make in online debates is to mistake internet surfing, cutting and pasting, for genuine research. The instant desire to gain information without the hard work neccessary to process it, is at the basis of a large swathe of online 'flame wars'.
Narkissos indicates this with your mistaken assumptions regarding Nietzsche.
Further, your statement regarding your disbelief of statistical figures provided by the US Government and the World Health Organization on another thread is telling. You discount one in favor of your limited personal experience, and the other because it is affiliated with the UN. This shows a partisan approach to these subjects which will result in your stating, 'I got it wrong' more times than you need.
Beware the Wikipedia Factor and beware an inability to deal with ones own agenda.
HS
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BurnTheShips
Beware the Wikipedia Factor and beware an inability to deal with ones own agenda.
That's good advice HS, and not just for me. ;-)