The American Heritage Dictionary defines the word Clique as , " A small , exclusive group of friends or associates . " Further in the synonym section under the word " circle ", it says about the word , " clique " A clique is an exclusive group, usually social and often participating in activities from which outsiders are barred ." It quotes John Lloyd , a writer - " The narrow, often self- perpetuating cliques which control our lives, living standards and leisures. "
Having been raised in the Jehovah's Witness organization for 44 years - I cannot tell you how many times I saw this type of behavior up close and personal. I saw many times , very peaceful, fine , classy friends dissed by " pioneers " , or others in allegedly " spiritually strong " positions in congregations on purpose. And what was the reason given by these " strong ones " to be impolite or totally ignore them at the kingdom hall ? Simply , that they weren't considered " spiritual " enough , or " reaching out " enough in the congregation ! I remember one elders wife - a pioneer - who would never go and converse with these " weak " ones sitting in seats at the side of the kingdom hall. But she would sure banter back and forth with her " spiritual" fleshly sister and " spiritual " girlfriends about everything going on in the personal lives of these peaceful, nice people sitting at the side of the hall . And of course , many times these ones sitting on the side , never had a clue what was being said about them - as they were the type they would never think of doing that to others.
I was the type that was never " in the know " about what was happening in these ones lives because I didn't hang out with those in the " clique " that talked about them . I would go over and see how they were doing directly though , just say hi ! and see about going out in service or at times having them for a meal or whatever. I was always an individualist , even as a teenager I would not go with the flow - in just a " clique " situational gossipping mode. I had a few good , close friends, but we would try to include others in baseball games, tennis, golf or other group activities. It was always fun getting to know a variety of people - it broadened your horizons more . Learned things more. How different people live and act.
So, I guess I'm just trying to say here , even when some people , nice people were in good standing in the congregations - they may as well have been disfellowshipped , because of " self- righteous " ones ignoring them anyway . I really believe that lack of human compassion and love led me to exit the organization ; among other things. I really felt much more freedom to love people completely , without fear , after exiting the witness cult ! So, did you folks see some of this stuff happen as well when a witness, and what did you learn from seeing it ? Man, I sure never want to ever experience that again ! I'm glad I got out when I did ! Look forward to your comments of what you experienced as well ! Peace out to all, Mr. Flipper
Did You Experience Shunning By " Cliques" in Witness Congregations ?
by flipper 27 Replies latest jw friends
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flipper
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Open mind
Hey Flipper,
I think some form of "cliques" are just part of human nature. Shared interests/dislikes, etc. Nvrgnbk's humongous "Beer Thread" on here springs to mind.
At the K Hall though, since it's supposed to be the spiritual paradise, we shouldn't see any of that. Uh huh. Right. The WT encourages cliques, IMO, when it counsels JWs to be careful of their assocation even "within the congregation". So the high-horsey types you describe are actually, in their minds, just following counsel from Mother.
As an elder I got to see both sides of this. I was raised in a "If you're not a pioneer, you ain't $h*T" household and so I always REALLY resented that attitude as an adult. But as an elder my family was more-often-than-not included in at least some of the "high-horsey" clique activities. So my wife and I have done our bit to piss off more than one "high horse" now and then. Quite a few times over the years, we've made it a point to invite a nice mix of folks over who we hope will have a good time together...... but also invite one "high horse".
If the high horse gets wind of the fact that the guest list includes even ONE "undesirable" they will ALWAYS cancel at the last minute for some lame reason. If we do manage to get them to come, they will ALWAYS want to know EXACTLY who is invited in the future.
BTW, the "undesirables" aren't recently reproved or anything HORRIBLE like that. (Not that that would stop me from having them over.) Just not pioneers or 20+ hour publishers. Maybe they've actually got some outside hobbies or interests, for shame!
Thanks for reminding of just one more positive feature of my rich spiritual heritage Flipper.
OM
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flipper
OPEN MIND- Good response , Open Mind ! Yeah, I agree some " cliques " are part of human nature . Beer " cliques " are good ! LOL! If cliques stay positive - it's cool , but you are right - the GB encouraged it by telling people to " mark " people in congregations that they felt didn't measure up ! Twisted turds !
I know what you mean though. I too was raised in a family that was considered spiritual , " top of the line " prime beef ! LOL! My dad, an elder since time began was city overseer for 30 years in the same town . However like you and your wife - my parents tried to have a variety of people over for dinner from the congregation and tried to get to know the " undesirables " ( your term ) LOL! . But they never acted as if they were above others , like I saw a lot though in others who were considered spiritual.
I didn't mean to bring bad memories up for you , sorry, but felt it was something good to remind ourselves of - so that all of us ex-witnesses try to not go through that again in a negative way ! Now that we are free of the cult ! Thanks for your thoughts - they were good ones ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper -
cognac
hmmmm, good question...
Well, it was so funny growing up... Cause there were so many cliques... I had my own, and me and this girl Janel were at the top of it... But we were never snobby about it... it just so happenned that in our group we were the most outgoing and just really got eachother... We never really excluded people, but I think people may have felt that way because they never really were in tune with us... We would go to the assembly and feel like we ruled the place... Wow, haven't thought about her in a long time... I should call her...
Anyways, I also had older brothers and sisters. They had a cut off age to be there friends, my brother just barely got by and he didn't even get to go to everything... He was a year and 1/2 older then me... So, no chance for me in that group. Sucked for awhile, cause all my friends left and I had 0 people to talk to... wow, that sucked soooo bad...
wow, I gotta call Janel though, cause she's out now and she was my best, best friend. I think she was a bit more loving then me, cause she always put people ahead of herself soooo much... She was an amazing person. She taught me a lot... She just had so much darn passion in her. I didn't know how one person could feel soooo much...
Ok, I'm rambling and got off subject, so shoot me...
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flipper
COGNAC- Well it sounds like you were a nice person in a " good clique " as you included other people in your circle at times. That was cool ! I remember when I was young , late teens , and early 20's kind of feeling big -headed because my dad was the city overseer - Whoopty -do ! eh? My older brother and 2 older sisters too treated me more like I was a liability to them as well, so I understand what you sat there ! I hope you can hook up with your girlfriend , as I think it would be an uplifting thing for you sis ! Mrs. Flipper says hi ! as well ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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cognac
Hey flipper - thanks!!! Don't get me wrong, i can be a big fat jerk sometimes... lol
Anyways, I'm glad you brought this up, cause I haven't really thought about it in a long time... It's so weird, cause it's like, I wouldn't even know what to say to her... The last time I contacted her was because another brother wanted me to so as to "bring her back". I don't remember what I said, but she probably figured I was up to no good and it did't really transpire to anything... Its so weird, cause I wouldn't even know what to say to her... I think she was on guard the last time so it wouldn't work if I just "called to say he"... She would think I'm trying to convert her and she's settled and content in her life...
On the other hand, if I was just out with it and told her I didn't want to be a JW anymore, she would feel more comfortable with me and we could get over that "wall" and just be cool with eachother. That would be the best idea I think... Its so weird, cause even though I think that would be the best idea, I'm nervous as hell to tell her that and she hasn't been to the kh in years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know everyone will tell me to take my time in telling her, but I don't think she would meet with me unless I did... She's probably been through a lot...
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JK666
Mr. F,
I ended up being the unofficial leader of a non-clique clique. All of the snobby, self-righteous people our age had an exclusive clique, and the "cool" people that were left hung out with each other. We found out one day that they had a nickname for us: The Dark Side. Instantly I got the nickname Darth, and I bestowed nicknames on my friends such as Molech, Baal, etc. We had a great time and could have given a rat's behind about the other clique, except for comic relief. And we were all inclusive of anyone rejected by the jerks in the Hall.
JK
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choosing life
The jws encourage cliques, not just by cautioning people to be careful of bad association in the congo. They also use titles like rungs on a corporate ladder. Many will do whatever it takes to climb that ladder, including avoiding those that don't measure up or sucking up to those with power.
When my husband was an elder there was a brother that was being considered for the title of elder. He and his wife put on a big meal and invited all the elders and their wives. It was strange because we had never been considered for any association by this couple before. He got his title and we were never invited to their house again, though they were invited to our house a few times. It was all so blatant that it was nauseating.
I still have an extreme aversion to 'titles" I don't mind that some people are just more comfortable with others that have similar interests, that's natural. It's the artificial creation of class distinctions, that the jws and other cults are so adept at, that I want no part of.
When my husband decided to "step aside" as an elder, it was amazing the how quickly some had no further use for us. That's ok though, it helped to open my eyes.
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cognac
"When my husband decided to "step aside" as an elder, it was amazing the how quickly some had no further use for us. That's ok though, it helped to open my eyes." Sucks that it has to be like that...
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flipper
COGNAC- If you know you could trust this girlfriend not to rat fink you out to your witness family - if she is TOTALLY trustworthy ( thus the capital letters ) you could tell her some things you have doubted as well about the organization. It would probably make her more comfortable . Just be careful whom you trust though ! Make sure !
JK- Hey bro ! Good to hear from you ! I would gladly appoint you the leader over my non- clique clique any time ! Wish I had been in your kingdom hall- we would have had great laughs at the expense of the " oh so hallowed " ones ! LOL!
CHOOSING LIFE- I too, being an elders son and seeing power plays all my life in the congregation - just got sick of it ! Really got tired of seeing it ! All the " titles " they give themselves ! It is so artificial how they complement each other - just to advance to elder or whatever ! I had an elder tell me one time when I was a ministerial servant what I had to do to be appointed an elder. He said, " Mr. Flipper, there are some elders you have to impress more than other ones. The elders that control the power is who you want to notice you to get appointed ! " After he told me this - I saw it was all a crock of $hit - the motives for serving as a servant at all. Kind of killed my desire to be an elder ! It is totally different than just liking someone for who they are - not what position you can attain ! So true what you said ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper