Being a Pro-Life Atheist

by B_Deserter 58 Replies latest jw friends

coolhandluke

OK - so should you be allowed to do anything you want "in your house"? Can you kill your children who happen to be out of the womb?
don't be pedantic. you saw me say the bit about my freedoms not compromising yours. my children are my responsibility. as long as they are warm, taught, cared for and loved, you have no responsibility toward them. now i know what you're going to say, "oh well luke the fact that you'd kill your children as a form of birth control means that i need to step in with my moral compass because yours is off". well thanks, i appreciate your assertion that my ability to make decisions based on my life experience is some how equated to being of less value than the decisions based on yours. it basically makes me want to curse you out.
I've been on both sides of this issue. Once a girlfriend told me that in order to protect me and my future, if she were to be pregnant, she'd abort the child and not tell me. I broke down and cried. On the other side, one of my closest friends growing up was the result of a rape. I talked her out of killing herself on a near daily basis. You tell me is it better for a child to know that they were unwanted, to always have a hole in their soul, knowing that they were a mistake or perhaps to be brought into the world at a disadvantage from circumstance or an inability to be cared for than to never exist at all? Perhaps my moral compass is off from your perspective but your one stop answer shop, cookie cutter approach to solving problems in what appears to be a rather narrow scope of thinking is also "off".
luke of the "morally repugnant" class
BurnTheShips

"oh well luke the fact that you'd kill your children as a form of birth control means that i need to step in with my moral compass because yours is off".
I don't think it is a question of individual moral compass, but of the most basic right, right to life. The government's most basic responsibility is to safeguard the rights of its members. If it does not do so, it is abdicating.
You tell me is it better for a child to know that they were unwanted, to always have a hole in their soul, knowing that they were a mistake or perhaps to be brought into the world at a disadvantage from circumstance or an inability to be cared for than to never exist at all?
I think so, yes. And besides, who is so wise among us as to know who to terminate? Every life is infinitely valuable.
I'll get out of the way now.
Burn
coolhandluke

perhaps I don't see life as having as much value as you. perhaps if people did not waste their lives as they do, it would have greater substance to me to attempt to protect it. the only purpose of life is to feed on life and to propagate itself. there isn't some higher purpose to it and there is not a soul on earth who can say any differently with any sort of certainty.
better to be unwanted/abused/unloved/? do you know the type of person that produces? better not to exist. believe me. that is the more 'loving' course.
Alex Delta

So those smokers that we kicked out of our restaurants and all other business establishments that are outside smoking because there harming themselves instead of people around them inside, is it ok to watch them die thru that window? I think abortion has more health risks than tobacco what do you think?
I've had friends, family, and an x girlfriend that’s had an abortion. I don't live in a trailer park or on a hill making moon shine but in a very predominant society where many people would think there wouldn't be any abortion. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong if you think this you are way off base. I'd say it's more common in an area where there's money and power because of just that, they're protecting there money and power, very self based people. My mother in law @ 16 was dropped of at an abortion clinic by her father because he was a big business man that held a very large position in his community and bishop of his church. When she was in her twenties she became very depressed. When friends or family came over and she found out that a child was7 around the time she had an abortion she would flip out to the point that she gets admitted and gets diagnosed with schizophrenia. These types of symptoms happen to most victims of having an abortion not to that extent but some form of depression which proves to me their psychological damage. Yes these people were also brought up as big bible believers where that guilt comes from those around them, which promotes this psychological battle in there minds even more but how about the proof we have on the health aspects of abortion. Look at all these health issues that come from abortion.
A LIST OF MAJOR PHYSICAL SEQUELAE RELATED TO ABORTION 1
DEATH: According to the best record based study of deaths following pregnancy and abortion, a 1997 government funded study in Finland, women who abort are approximately four times more likely to die in the following year than women who carry their pregnancies to term. In addition, women who carry to term are only half as likely to die as women who were not pregnant.(16) (Click here for more details on this important study.)
The Finland researchers found that compared to women who carried to term, women who aborted in the year prior to their deaths were 60 percent more likely to die of natural causes, seven times more likely to die of suicide, four times more likely to die of injuries related to accidents, and 14 times more likely to die from homicide. Researchers believe the higher rate of deaths related to accidents and homicide may be linked to higher rates of suicidal or risk-taking behavior.(16) (Click here for details on the latest research regarding abortion associated deaths.)
The leading causes of abortion related maternal deaths within a week of the surgery are hemorrhage, infection, embolism, anesthesia, and undiagnosed ectopic pregnancies. Legal abortion is reported as the fifth leading cause of maternal death in the United States, though in fact it is recognized that most abortion related deaths are not officially reported as such.(2) (Click here for more details on the underreporting of abortion related deaths in the U.S.)
BREAST CANCER:
The risk of breast cancer almost doubles after one abortion, and rises even further with two or more abortions.(3)
CERVICAL, OVARIAN, AND LIVER CANCER:
Women with one abortion face a 2.3 relative risk of cervical cancer, compared to non-aborted women, and women with two or more abortions face a 4.92 relative risk. Similar elevated risks of ovarian and liver cancer have also been linked to single and multiple abortions. These increased cancer rates for post-aborted women are apparently linked to the unnatural disruption of the hormonal changes which accompany pregnancy and untreated cervical damage.(4)
UTERINE PERFORATION:
Between 2 and 3% of all abortion patients may suffer perforation of their uterus, yet most of these injuries will remain undiagnosed and untreated unless laparoscopic visualization is performed.(5) Such an examination may be useful when beginning an abortion malpractice suit. The risk of uterine perforation is increased for women who have previously given birth and for those who receive general anesthesia at the time of the abortion.(6) Uterine damage may result in complications in later pregnancies and may eventually evolve into problems which require a hysterectomy, which itself may result in a number of additional complications and injuries including osteoporosis.
CERVICAL LACERATIONS:
Significant cervical lacerations requiring sutures occur in at least one percent of first trimester abortions. Lesser lacerations, or micro fractures, which would normally not be treated may also result in long term reproductive damage. Latent post-abortion cervical damage may result in subsequent cervical incompetence, premature delivery, and complications of labor. The risk of cervical damage is greater for teenagers, for second trimester abortions, and when practitioners fail to use laminaria for dilation of the cervix.(7)
PLACENTA PREVIA:
Abortion increases the risk of placenta previa in later pregnancies (a life threatening condition for both the mother and her wanted pregnancy) by seven to fifteen fold. Abnormal development of the placenta due to uterine damage increases the risk of fetal malformation, perinatal death, and excessive bleeding during labor.(8)
COMPLICATIONS OF LABOR: Women who had one, two, or more previous induced abortions are, respectively, 1.89, 2.66, or 2.03 times more likely to have a subsequent pre-term delivery, compared to women who carry to term. Prior induced abortion not only increased the risk of premature delivery, it also increased the risk of delayed delivery. Women who had one, two, or more induced abortions are, respectively, 1.89, 2.61, and 2.23 times more likely to have a post-term delivery (over 42 weeks).(17) Pre-term delivery increases the risk of neo-natal death and handicaps.
HANDICAPPED NEWBORNS IN LATER PREGNANCIES:
Abortion is associated with cervical and uterine damage which may increase the risk of premature delivery, complications of labor and abnormal development of the placenta in later pregnancies. These reproductive complications are the leading causes of handicaps among newborns.(9)
ECTOPIC PREGNANCY:
Abortion is significantly related to an increased risk of subsequent ectopic pregnancies. Ectopic pregnancies, in turn, are life threatening and may result in reduced fertility.(10)
PELVIC INFLAMMATORY DISEASE (PID):
PID is a potentially life threatening disease which can lead to an increased risk of ectopic pregnancy and reduced fertility. Of patients who have a chlamydia infection at the time of the abortion, 23% will develop PID within 4 weeks. Studies have found that 20 to 27% of patients seeking abortion have a chlamydia infection. Approximately 5% of patients who are not infected by chlamydia develop PID within 4 weeks after a first trimester abortion. It is therefore reasonable to expect that abortion providers should screen for and treat such infections prior to an abortion.(11)
ENDOMETRITIS:
Endometritis is a post-abortion risk for all women, but especially for teenagers, who are 2.5 times more likely than women 20-29 to acquire endometritis following abortion.(12)
IMMEDIATE COMPLICATIONS:
Approximately 10% of women undergoing elective abortion will suffer immediate complications, of which approximately one-fifth (2%) are considered life threatening. The nine most common major complications which can occur at the time of an abortion are: infection, excessive bleeding, embolism, ripping or perforation of the uterus, anesthesia complications, convulsions, hemorrhage, cervical injury, and endotoxic shock. The most common "minor" complications include: infection, bleeding, fever, second degree burns, chronic abdominal pain, vomiting, gastro-intestinal disturbances, and Rh sensitization.(13)
INCREASED RISKS FOR WOMEN SEEKING MULTIPLE ABORTIONS:
In general, most of the studies cited above reflect risk factors for women who undergo a single abortion. These same studies show that women who have multiple abortions face a much greater risk of experiencing these complications. This point is especially noteworthy since approximately 45% of all abortions are for repeat aborters.
LOWER GENERAL HEALTH:
In a survey of 1428 women researchers found that pregnancy loss, and particularly losses due to induced abortion, was significantly associated with an overall lower health. Multiple abortions correlated to an even lower evaluation of "present health." While miscarriage was detrimental to health, abortion was found to have a greater correlation to poor health. These findings support previous research which reported that during the year following an abortion women visited their family doctors 80% more for all reasons and 180% more for psychosocial reasons. The authors also found that "if a partner is present and not supportive, the miscarriage rate is more than double and the abortion rate is four times greater than if he is present and supportive. If the partner is absent the abortion rate is six times greater." (15)
This finding is supported by a 1984 study that examined the amount of health care sought by women during a year before and a year after their induced abortions. The researchers found that on average, there was an 80 percent increase in the number of doctor visits and a 180 percent increase in doctor visits for psychosocial reasons after abortion.(18)
INCREASED RISK FOR CONTRIBUTING HEALTH RISK FACTORS:
Abortion is significantly linked to behavioral changes such as promiscuity, smoking, drug abuse, and eating disorders which all contribute to increased risks of health problems. For example, promiscuity and abortion are each linked to increased rates of PID and ectopic pregnancies. Which contributes most is unclear, but apportionment may be irrelevant if the promiscuity is itself a reaction to post- abortion trauma or loss of self esteem.
INCREASED RISKS FOR TEENAGERS:
Teenagers, who account for about 30 percent of all abortions, are also at much high risk of suffering many abortion related complications. This is true of both immediate complications, and of long-term reproductive damage.(14)
lonelysheep

A&W--where did you get that list?
Also, I just love how it makes statements about health risks yet doesn't explain the actual medical and/or anatomical linkage other than the fact that those organs exist inside a woman. Abortions contribute to endometriosis, how? And that was just one.
MissingLink

Do we know what type of person that produces? Yes we do - LINK HERE
Where I live there are way more parents wanting to adopt than there are children being placed. Me and my wife would be happy to adopt, but there just aren't enough children to go around. We certainly would give one of these children a good home if given the opportunity.
I'm not 100% against early pregnancy abortion (for rapes for example) or in cases where the mother will die otherwise. Its just that it worries me that our collective conscience as a society can be swayed by inconveniences and selfishness. Its easy for some to devalue someone elses life. But what happens whenever someone else decides to devalue yours?
serotonin_wraith

beksbks:
Seratonin, I'm sorry, but the idea that there are so many loving families out there ready to take on these children, and love them and give them a chance in this life is generally bunk. Most of us mothers and potential mothers have an extremely strong desire to protect our children. My point is that if someone is capable of aborting their own child, maybe in the long run it's best. That is what nature does. Heck, mother cats eat their young if they feel they are in too much danger!
If the mother doesn't want their child, they can give it to someone who does. We as a society intervene if the parents are bad, we don't let them treat their children any way they wish. I wouldn't want children raised in loveless environments either, but as there are couples who cannot have their own children, they seem to fill a role here, and I don't think there are hardly any of them. If the problem is love, then the mother with none can give the child to someone with plenty to offer.
BurnTheShips

A LIST OF MAJOR PHYSICAL SEQUELAE RELATED TO ABORTION
The main health risk is for the child.
Burn
lonelysheep

Is a fetus 2 months or under a baby? Does that fetus have more rights than the woman who owns that womb and all its contents?
That is the question I am asking YOU. I believe a fetus less than 2 months old is human. As such, it is entitled to LIFE.
I believe a fetus less than two months is a potential human. This is even after seeing all stages of development in my face in the reproductive section of the BODIES exhibit.
I mentioned the "pro war/pro kill tyes" because if you are going to be prolife, then take a humanistic viewpoint torward adults as well. For many who are prolife (for the general population, individually or not) picking and choosing when 'people' have rights seems to start at conception and end after they are born.
I do not pick and choose, I think I have a logical and consistent view on life.
Most people in the US, not you specifically. No implications meant.
Unless someone is pregnant, I guess it's not anyone's decision but her's. I did not write of taking out villages and orphanages like that statement subconciously implies.
O.K. So the unborn have no say in their own fate?
No. At the same time, numerous amounts of the "born" do not have any say so on their own fate, either.

Alex Delta

lonely sheep is this what you wanted?

NOTES
1. An excellent resource for any attorney involved in abortion malpractice is Thomas Strahan's Detrimental Effects of Abortion: An Annotated Bibliography with Commentary (Third Edition) This resource includes brief summaries of major finding drawn from medical and psychology journal articles, books, and related materials, divided into major categories of relevant injuries.

2. Kaunitz, "Causes of Maternal Mortality in the United States," Obstetrics and Gynecology, 65(5) May 1985.

3. H.L. Howe, et al., "Early Abortion and Breast Cancer Risk Among Women Under Age 40," International Journal of Epidemiology 18(2):300-304 (1989); L.I. Remennick, "Induced Abortion as A Cancer Risk Factor: A Review of Epidemiological Evidence," Journal of Epidemiological Community Health, (1990); M.C. Pike, "Oral Contraceptive Use and Early Abortion as Risk Factors for Breast Cancer in Young Women," British Journal of Cancer 43:72 (1981).

4. M-G, Le, et al., "Oral Contraceptive Use and Breast or Cervical Cancer: Preliminary Results of a French Case- Control Study, Hormones and Sexual Factors in Human Cancer Etiology, ed. JP Wolff, et al., Excerpta Medica: New York (1984) pp.139-147; F. Parazzini, et al., "Reproductive Factors and the Risk of Invasive and Intraepithelial Cervical Neoplasia," British Journal of Cancer, 59:805-809 (1989); H.L. Stewart, et al., "Epidemiology of Cancers of the Uterine Cervix and Corpus, Breast and Ovary in Israel and New York City," Journal of the National Cancer Institute 37(1):1-96; I. Fujimoto, et al., "Epidemiologic Study of Carcinoma in Situ of the Cervix," Journal of Reproductive Medicine 30(7):535 (July 1985); N. Weiss, "Events of Reproductive Life and the Incidence of Epithelial Ovarian Cancer," Am. J. of Epidemiology, 117(2):128-139 (1983); V. Beral, et al., "Does Pregnancy Protect Against Ovarian Cancer," The Lancet, May 20, 1978, pp. 1083-1087; C. LaVecchia, et al., "Reproductive Factors and the Risk of Hepatocellular Carcinoma in Women," International Journal of Cancer, 52:351, 1992.

5. S. Kaali, et al., "The Frequency and Management of Uterine Perforations During First-Trimester Abortions," Am. J. Obstetrics and Gynecology 161:406-408, August 1989; M. White, "A Case-Control Study of Uterine Perforations documented at Laparoscopy," Am. J. Obstetrics and Gynecology 129:623 (1977).

6. D. Grimes, et al., "Prevention of uterine perforation During Curettage Abortion," JAMA, 251:2108-2111 (1984); D. Grimes, et al.,"Local versus General Anesthesia: Which is Safer For Performing Suction Abortions?" Am. J. of Obstetrics and Gynecology, 135:1030 (1979).

7. K. Schulz, et al., "Measures to Prevent Cervical Injuries During Suction Curettage Abortion," The Lancet, May 28, 1983, pp 1182-1184; W. Cates, "The Risks Associated with Teenage Abortion," New England Journal of Medicine, 309(11):612-624; R. Castadot, "Pregnancy Termination: Techniques, Risks, and Complications and Their Management," Fertility and Sterility, 45(1):5-16 (1986).

8. Barrett, et al., "Induced Abortion: A Risk Factor for Placenta Previa", American Journal of Ob&Gyn. 141:7 (1981).

9. Hogue, Cates and Tietze, "Impact of Vacuum Aspiration Abortion on Future Childbearing: A Review", Family Planning Perspectives (May-June 1983),vol.15, no.3.

10. Daling,et.al., "Ectopic Pregnancy in Relation to Previous Induced Abortion", JAMA, 253(7):1005-1008 (Feb. 15, 1985); Levin, et.al., "Ectopic Pregnancy and Prior Induced Abortion", American Journal of Public Health (1982), vol.72,p253; C.S. Chung, "Induced Abortion and Ectopic Pregnancy in Subsequent Pregnancies," American Journal of Epidemiology 115(6):879-887 (1982)

11. T. Radberg, et al., "Chlamydia Trachomatis in Relation to Infections Following First Trimester Abortions," Acta Obstricia Gynoecological (Supp. 93), 54:478 (1980); L. Westergaard, "Significance of Cervical Chlamydia Trachomatis Infection in Post-abortal Pelvic Inflammatory Disease," Obstetrics and Gynecology, 60(3):322-325, (1982); M. Chacko, et al., "Chlamydia Trachomatosis Infection in Sexually Active Adolescents: Prevalence and Risk Factors," Pediatrics, 73(6), (1984); M. Barbacci, et al., "Post- Abortal Endometritis and Isolation of Chlamydia Trachomatis," Obstetrics and Gynecology 68(5):668-690, (1986); S. Duthrie, et al., "Morbidity After Termination of Pregnancy in First-Trimester," Genitourinary Medicine 63(3):182-187, (1987).

12. Burkman, et al., "Morbidity Risk Among Young Adolescents Undergoing Elective Abortion" Contraception, 30:99-105 (1984); "Post-Abortal Endometritis and Isolation of Chlamydia Trachomatis," Obstetrics and Gynecology 68(5):668- 690, (1986)

13. Frank, et.al., "Induced Abortion Operations and Their Early Sequelae", Journal of the Royal College of General Practitioners (April 1985),35(73):175-180; Grimes and Cates, "Abortion: Methods and Complications", Human Reproduction, 2nd ed., 796-813; M.A. Freedman, "Comparison of complication rates in first trimester abortions performed by physician assistants and physicians," Am. J. Public Health, 76(5):550- 554 (1986).

14. Wadhera, "Legal Abortion Among Teens, 1974-1978", Canadian Medical Association Journal, 122:1386-1389,(June 1980).

15. Ney, et.al., "The Effects of Pregnancy Loss on Women's Health," Soc. Sci. Med. 48(9):1193-1200, 1994; Badgley, Caron, & Powell, Report of the Committee on the Abortion Law, Supply and Services, Ottawa, 1997: 319-321.

16. Gissler, M., et. al., "Pregnancy-associated deaths in Finland 1987-1994 -- definition problems and benefits of record linkage," Acta Obsetricia et Gynecolgica Scandinavica 76:651-657 (1997).

17. Zhou, Weijin, et. al., "Induced Abortion and Subsequent Pregnancy Duration," Obstetrics & Gynecology 94(6):948-953 (Dec. 1999).

18. D. Berkeley, P.L. Humphreys, and D. Davidson, "Demands Made on General Practice by Women Before and After an Abortion," J. R. Coll. Gen. Pract. 34:310-315, 1984.

Being a Pro-Life Atheist

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