If You Were Wrong About The JWs, Maybe Your Current Beliefs Aren't True

by serotonin_wraith 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

BurnTheShips

What is the creationist theory on this, oh wait god made it. Great idea but, not testable, hence not provable, hence not scientific.
How can you submit the Author of Logic, Reason, Science to the test using Science? To bind God by human logic would make this logic itself the Ultimate reality.
Yes it does quite well because morals evolve over time themselves.
Why? Why does the potentialty for morality to evolve to higher forms exist?
The Big Bang according to a theory though I don't agree with it. I agree with the constant universe theory which it to say there was none.
Why? Why do you believe a discredited theory when the preponderance of evidence demonstrates it to be wrong? It is not testable, hence not provable, hence not scientific.
Put up a better working theory than science has and you stop looking like the total blind fool you come off as and I might follow your advise.
Give me a better reason to live and a higher purpose than what I have and I just might change my beliefs.
This is arguing a lack of imagination on your part. Not mine I don't believe it had a starting point.
There is that word again. "Believe". Where is the scientific evidence 5G0? To be a steady-statist without evidence is like being a theist for the same.
BurnTheShips

RD

Existence appears to be constructed in such away that it seems designed. All that we perceive is rationally ordered, even things we have deemed chaotic (I suspect we often christen that which we cannot reduce to a formula as "chaotic".). The nature of of what we percieve tends to move towards rational complexity over time. We see that the development of complexity in living things is often attributed to blind forces, the blind watchmaker, etc. Despite this uncaring blindness, it seems more then a coincidence that all theses potentialities to self-organize and complexify should exist in the first place. The actualization of these potentialities seems to be preprogrammed into the natural order, waiting to be caused or actualized under certain conditions. Where do these potentialities come from? For what purpose does the potentiality for rational mind and personal will exist? Why does the natural world exist in a manner that an arrangement of blind forces and matter will, under certain circumstances, instantiate rational creatures that can love and create works of aesthetic beauty? (There is no "love" there is no "beauty" just random electrochemical interactions? What a dreadful reduction!) Some would believe that our universe is engaging in anthropogenic self-expression. What was once indifferent and blind has now come alive through sentient humanity. Could we merely be an aspect of the Universe's self-expression? Is our happiness actually the Universe's? In this respect, even Pantheism seems to be a more rational weltanschauung then atheism. If the Universe is really like this then we have to conclude that the Universe is purpose-driven. Purpose implies Will. Will implies Intelligence. Intelligence implies Mind. We hear much here about dispassionate, objective, scientific analysis, but the objective world compliments the rational viewer with its own rationally objective appearance. If the all-that-is is strictly a physical manifestation, then how is it that our minds can think immaterial thoughts? Who and what is viewing those thoughts, and how can we remember the past and imagine complexities (that do not have a naturalistic analogue) without viewing them through our physical senses? The minds-eye, although it does not provide absolute proof of the supernatural nonmaterial, does appear to undermine naturalism, and is the best universally accessible piece of evidence that the world cannot be explained merely through naturalism. It seems to me that there appear to be other potential dimensions of immateriality. If the universe began (5g0 notwithstanding) and includes time, space, energy and matter, and if we acknowledge that anything which begins to exist needs an antecedent cause, such a cause would rationally transcend the natural order of physical reality. Such a reality is called super-natural or, as most call it, God. At any rate, it is the Ultimate Reality from which all derives or will derive. All other things are contingent.
Chalam

Hi,
Maybe these questions has been raised before but what was there before the universe existed? Where did it exist? What is beyond the limits of space and time? Are there other dimensions outside of our space and time?

These questions cannot be answered by pure science and mathematics. The great minds know that there is a huge unknown factor in any explanations and they must consider that leaves ample room for the existence of God.

One factor is of the spiritual realm. Are we just flesh and blood or is there more to our being than that? What is consciousness? What happens when we die?

Having seen my first and only dead body I immediately concluded that the person 'had left' and 'wasn't there'. We are shielded from death very much in the modern western world so we don't have to consider death like we did do in centuries ago.

Also, the notion of spirituality is widespread beyond the modern first world. Have we really made such 'progress' in our thinking?

All the best,
Stephen
Vinny

More boring atheist nonsense.

And I can see why. Having to defend atheism sure aint no laughing matter, eh seratonin? I'd sure hate to be stuck defending "dead matter from nothing by nobody into amazing, complex, organized and purposeful things" too.
serotonin_wraith

RollerDave,
Re: Morality without a god. It was a recent topic and I put my thoughts here if you want to see them-
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/150883/2.ashx
Evolution is just a fact, I'm afraid. The only people in this world who have a problem with it (mostly) are some American Christians. The facts for it being real are overwhelming, and I'll be happy to share them with you if you're willing to be open about it.
Everything in the universe, as far as we know, has a natural cause. No supernatual cause has ever been discovered for anything. There's nothing irrational in concluding the things we don't (yet) know the origin of had a natural cause too. But note I'm not being dogmatic and saying I KNOW what that cause was, as you are. I'm saying I don't know yet, and you are the one claiming to know it was a specific god. I'm taking the honest approach.
Evolution isn't chance.
I'm not taking anything on faith, I don't even say there's definitely no god. Just that I don't believe in one. And please don't take offense at the 'fool me once' saying, it's just a saying. It's easy to see how you could think 'chance evolution' is a silly idea. I completely agree. But once you learn it's not chance, and that the only people saying it is are creationists trying to trick people such as yourself, a whole new world opens up.
Burn,
Not every desire exists. I desire a vehicle to take me back in time. No such vehicle exists, yet my desire is real. Wanting something to be real does not make it real. You're free to believe if you want, but I think you'd have some choice words for me if I believed in a time travelling vehicle because I wanted it to exist.
I won't interfere with your chat with 5go, except to comment on this you said-
"Give me a better reason to live and a higher purpose than what I have and I just might change my beliefs."
It may just come down to this for you - you see no purpose without a god. I think it's just perspective. I see purpose with the Biblical god limited. Worship God, follow the rules (and try to justify ignoring the ones you don't approve of) so that you can live for an eternity.
But take those shackles off, and the sky's the limit. YOU get to choose how to live, and what to do. I find myself being creative, helping others, enjoying good company, getting into deep conversations that make me think, listening to music and watching shows I like. You could get in touch with nature, meditate, become a chef, start your own business - anything you want to do.
I think you see death from the wrong side too. You're lucky to be alive, even luckier to be in a culture where you can eat every day and live without oppression. You're lucky that you get much more time to exist than most other animals on the planet. Life is for living, yet you may be giving up dreams and goals in this one in the hopes of a better life to come. Worry about that when it comes, if there is a god you only have a 1 in 3000 chance of picking the true one anyway. This life you're living now is a certainty.
Chalam,
Your questions are great. We're trying to find out the answers to these. I don't think they're all impossible to find out. There was a time when we had no idea about other galaxies. But our knowledge is growing. To say God did it just shuts the search off. How would we have discovered the true nature of thunder if we'd said Thor did it? We had to look beyond that, just as we have to look beyond the modern gods today.
When people die, their bodies shut down, including the brain. If 'we' exist in the brain only, then in that sense we do leave. We may go elsewhere, we may not. These are interesting things to look into, but I think you shut yourself off from all the possibilities. Your answer is that you go to heaven if you've been good to live with Yahweh. My answer is that we don't know. I see no evidence for an afterlife, I understand we're just another species on this planet, so I think it's more likely we go the same way as other animals. Wherever that is.
Vinny,
If you research evolution, you will see that complex creatures can evolve over time due to natural selection. It's not chance. Humanity is still growing in knowledge. Why should we know how to do everything right now? We've only recently gone to the moon, cloned sheep and made test tube babies. Imagine what this century will bring! Humans cannot start earthquakes, so does that mean they come from a god shaking the planet? No, it just means we can't start earthquakes, yet the cause of them is very much natural.
Watch the second video here, or don't, it's up to you. But you can't say I didn't try to help you see how complex creatures come to be. It's like I said to someone else here: Once you're unwilling to question, you're trapped.
http://www.richarddawkins.net/growingupintheuniverse
Zico

Maybe... Probably!

Everybody builds their beliefs or non-beliefs around the "evidence" they have received in their life, this is why there is so much diversity in life, we have different friends and family who have influenced us, we read different things, and even when we read the same things, our influences cause us to interpret it differently! It's important to remember that since our experiences will always be limited, our opinions will also be limited.

What about me? Sometimes (most of the time?) I think it would be easier if I could be an atheist, whilst "God" can answer some questions Science can't, it raises a hell of a lot more questions that are answered by: "There is no God" However, I've had experiences that I personally, cannot, just write off, anymore than I could write off a meeting with any one person. I can't prove them objectively, and nor do I have any intention of trying, but it doesn't make them less real for me.

But that is just me. And who am I to say someone else's experiences are any less valid than my own?

Sero, except that I find you generalise far too often, I think you're a smart guy. I don't look down on your opinions.
serotonin_wraith

Thanks Zico. I think Christianity has become like an eat what you want buffet, so I'm bound to say things that some Christians don't apply to themselves. Some believe in evolution, some think everyone gets a fair shot at heaven whether they follow Jesus or not, and so on. People have their own personal religion much of the time, under the banner of Christianity.
Have you ever been tricked by an optical illusion or a magic trick and thought 'How in the world did they do that? It's impossible!'? You wouldn't jump to the conclusion a god was involved there, even if it really looked like something supernatural had taken place. Or just imagine if you'd had a vision or a feeling that Leonardo Da Vinci was in your bedroom. While that could be very real to you, your rational mind should take over and look for alternative explanations for what you experienced. You shouldn't stop that kind of thinking if you've experienced something to do with the Biblical god. It's all about being consistent.
Chalam

Hi serotonin_wraith,
Thanks for your post. Let me try and expand on some of the topics raised.

I agree about mankind's knowledge has never been so great. In fact our knowledge is now doubling every 18 months they say. Not sure how they quantify that but no doubt it has much to do with the availability of computing power. But take computers alone, can we ever build one and program it to have as much intelligence as the human brain? Isn't the a computer fundamentally dumb? Can a computer ever be conscious? How far can Artificial Intelligence go? Is it only ever limited by our own interlligence?

My suspicion is that atheists will argue that a computer has no soul or spirit and neither do we. However, my own conclusion is that we are fundamentally different to a computer, it is only a machine (although an incredible powerful one) but we are not, we are alive, conscious and exist in a way the a computer doesn't.

My own suspicion is that we can never find all the answers in this world via technological advance alone, even given an infinite amount of time. I believe we exist outside of this physical realm in almost a 'parallel universe. Consider these verses for example.

Matthew 6:6 (New International Version)
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Ephesians 1:19-21 (New International Version)
19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

2 Corinthians 4:17-18 (New International Version)
17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

John 4:24 (New International Version)
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

The last verse really sums up what I was saying earlier, God is spirit and we cannot explain spiritual things in the physical realm. Consider three attributes of God.

omniscient:
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

omnipotent:
ALMIGHTY-having absolute power over all

omnipresent:
present in all places at all times

Each one is infinite in it's own way. I cannot grasp the concept of infinity, a universe without end, time without end so I can never become God unless I get a significant (infinite) upgrade.

I feel that the true nature of thunder has not changed, I do not believe in Thor but I believe in one true God and I believe God makes the thunder and lightening. That does not say that I dismiss how thunder works, rains charging up until they a ready to blow and the electrons jump down to earth.

Going back to the evidence of an afterlife, would you conclude that there is circumstantial evidence to that effect? Take near-death experiences for example. I would be very cautious on staking any belief on this issue alone, but that said they are circumstantial evidence for the afterlife IMHO. Or they could be bogus, you decide!

I urge you to watch this video. My own belief is that his experience is totally genuine.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3682855866783766146

OK these verses sum it up for me.

Hebrews 11:1-3 (New International Version)

By Faith

1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Anyhow, let me know your thoughts!

All the best,
Stephen
serotonin_wraith

Hey Chalam,
The consciousness of computers- I don't think they're 'dumb' for a start, just try playing chess against one! I think the idea of a soul is a tricky one. Breaking it down, our consciousness may just be electrical signals within the brain, making sense of the universe through our five senses, or 'filters'. We can't see or hear as well as some animals, yet our limited senses give us a representation of reality we feel comfortable with. But there is more we cannot sense at present. We don't have the complete picture at all. I was watching a program on dolphins earlier, they experience the world through sound mostly. Are they wrong? No. Are they seeing true reality? No, and neither are we. I don't think any animal has evolved to the point where it can sense all the wavelengths of light, all the sound waves, and so on. So knowing who 'we' are is difficult to determine. We are somewhat limited.
An atheist is free to think what they want about 'spirituality', the soul, consciousness, etc. These things may exist without a god. After watching plenty of shows on androids and robots and holograms, I have the same questions too. But thinking Jesus died for my sins isn't going to solve them. They will be solved with evidence, not feelings.
You say you cannot grasp the concept of infinity. You apply that characteristic to your god easily enough. I don't think it's too hard to grasp. Think of the biggest number you can, then keep adding to it. It goes on and on, and when you think it's gotten quite long, just keep going. There's no reason to stop.
You say you cannot explain the 'spiritual' realm. You are limited by your physical make up, as I am. And yet you try to explain the spiritual realm, and you say that you know there is a god, and that you know which god is real. It baffles me, because if you 'cannot explain the spiritual realm', what are doing trying to explain the spiritual realm?
With faith? You don't use this kind of faith for anything else in life. You couldn't rely on faith to believe in Thor - you dismiss that god without blinking. But faith in Yahweh becomes a virtue for you. The god is different, but the same thing you think is ridiculous in one instance is seen as a good thing just a few sentences later.
If there is anything after death, why does a god have to be involved? It may be completely natural, it may be aliens uploading our souls into their computers, it could be lots of things. Nobody knows. You're saying you do know, and I think you're wrong to be so sure of yourself. It's late here, but I'll watch that video in the next day or two. Thanks.
BurnTheShips

Sero. A question.
Why?

If You Were Wrong About The JWs, Maybe Your Current Beliefs Aren't True

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