Why socialism will not work in America...

by zeroday 254 Replies latest jw friends

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    What I have suggested is that the economic EXCESSES in ANY society are repugnant to any person with a sense of justice and an understanding of the real needs of society and that a more even spread of wealth serves societies needs much more justly than the opposite.

    Agreed. But we disagree in how we accomplish this.

    read my posts carefully would ascertain.

    Perhaps you should write more clearly so we don't have to be so careful.

    Now, please feel free to help me 'get it'; but be aware that I am well versed politically and lived under many different systems including the US system. I can guarantee from your comments you have experience of differing political ideologies is very minimal.

    The arrogance in that statement is self-evident.

    Burn

  • journey-on
    journey-on
    but be aware that I am well versed politically and lived under many different systems including the US system. I can guarantee from your comments you have experience of differing political ideologies is very minimal.

    HS -- you are a condescending bs artist. As if the above statement makes you some kind of political ideology EXPERT. I call BULLSH*T.

    One of the reasons I don't like to get into debate with you is because YOU ALWAYS resort to condescending name calling and personal insults. I can't stand that kind of low balling and won't waste

    my intellect on it.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Journey-on.

    I find it informational that HS will not interact with my comments.

    Burn

  • OICU8it2
    OICU8it2

    Hey HS, the US is a republic, not a democracy. That word is not even in the Constitution. Take your argument to the extreme. The Soviet Union stands as an example of socialism.. Everyone equal-- equally poor. Why do you feel the need of help from the government in your life? Do you think the EU has a larger GDP than the US. How about productivity per capita comparisons. The EU is a merger of failed pseudo socialistic countries. You are obviously a wealth redistribution believer. When income is no longer increased by working longer and/or harder why work and produce extra? France now is coming to the realization that hard work should be rewarded with more pay. A proposal to lift the work week hours from 35 and to allow overtime to not be taxed is under consideration. We are a Republic with lots of problems. They are nothing conservatism will not fix.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    My suggestion: Don't try to change American values to those of Europe's.

    Americans almost worship success.

    Euros seem to hate it.

    The two cultural attitudes produce very different outcomes.

    My grandfather came here without even knowing the language he managed to reach lower middle class status. He is currently retired. My father has done well also, reaching upper middle level.

    I left home after I got married at 21 with no job, a months rent, and 600 dollars, as an "oppressed minority". I have done well so far myself. I have reason to be proud and grateful.

    A democracy will not last without a majority middle class. The best way to accomplish this is to remove barriers and obstacles to success. Not burdensome taxation and redistribution. Welfare destroys the spirit of a people.

    Burn

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    Ever read Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith? I know I probably should. ;)

    "To justify the robber baron culture, America’s business educators and economists falsely cite their demigod of laissez-faire market economics, Adam Smith. Little do they know that Adam Smith in fact scathingly castigated Bush’s type of government: business collusion and unfair taxes, Wal-Mart’s exploitations of labor and communities, and robber barons’ hubris. Nowhere in his 900-page book, The Wealth of Nations, does Smith even imply that those who knowingly harm others and society in their pursuit of personal greed also benefit their society. He rejects the notion that a corporation exists to make money without ethical constraints." - from ICH



    “The vile maxim of the masters of mankind, all for ourselves and none for other people.” - Adam Smith

    Dave

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24
    Americans admire those that become successful through talent and hard work. They are our role models. It does not seem to be like that on the other side of the pond.

    I disagree. They admire those who have money. They admire and worship those who accumulate wealth and I'm not even sure if they care how that wealth is acquired. I don't think they especially care either, how that wealth is spent. Tabloids sell more than any economics or science magazine and what are tabloids filled with? Gossip. The gossip is only centered around the rich and famous - talent isn't always a necessity - just take the Nicole Richie, Paris Hilton or Heidi Fleiss of the world. I don't think this is any different from other places around the world and the way people might view others - but I will say that in other countries that do have good social programs in place, the prevailing attitude in those societies tends to be a view of 'we' instead of 'me'. sammieswife

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    PrimateDave.

    Greed and avarice are evil. Humans have many evil traits. I do not know that Wal-Mart is totally negative, on the balance.

    The Wealth of Nations, does Smith even imply that those who knowingly harm others and society in their pursuit of personal greed also benefit their society. He rejects the notion that a corporation exists to make money without ethical constraints."

    There is the rub. And that is why laws exist to protect from abuse.

    There is a philanthopic tradition in this country. Carnegie. Look at Gates and Buffet. I interact with some very wealthy individuals through my work. Their efforts result in millions being given to charitable causes yearly. That is the model I hope more aspire to.

    Burn

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    I think people align themselves to the ideologies that they wish to live their own life by. Pure capitalism will implode on itself sooner or later and that's when people riot and demand their fair share of the pie, which then result in laws being made that do redistribute wealth.

    Anything that stands in the way of profits, investment and growth – the rights and wages of labour, environmental standards, taxes, human rights ofcommunities whose survival resources are often appropriated – is thus naturally seen as an obstacle to progress. Any serious conception of substantive democracy (for instance one that involves worker participation in decision-making within the company, or the entitlement of affected communities to defend their right to livelihood and way of life) thus naturally stands in the way of capitalist progress

    The reason that workers today have better working conditions, wages, benefits and laws can for the most part be attributed to unions. Unions in the USA have been under attack for years now and in fact there have been some heavy laws passed by the governments in their attempt to destroy the unionization of America. In order for capitalism to work, a profit must be made and to a corporation it doesn't matter how that happens. Corporations are not necessarily nationalists so if Bill Gates or General Motors wants to pick up and move to Africa (just an example) because they can make 1,000 times the profit, destroying land and resources in that country and causing a major economic upheaval in the lives of their current employees in the USA, they could care less. It's all about the money. In this method of operation, that same corporation may then create another new business and rehire those workers for 25% of their previous pay and fully expect them to be grateful for that job while they again set up a very hefty profit margin for themselves. Now - if you are the guy who lost his job and now working for that 25%, you are of course never supposed to complain - even as you cash in your pension funds to live on, give up your life insurance and health insurance because you can't afford it and basically within a few years are living on fumes. If you complain, you'll be told that it's all your fault for not saving, or not going to school longer, or being in the wrong profession, or not working hard enough, not having more than one job, taking that day off to go camping, spending a dollar more for that coffee once a month or splurging on a fast food dinner once a year. When your pension is all gone because you got sick - the $200,000. that you had saved up for retirement but lost to hospital bills when your health insurance got cancelled when the corporation ended your 2,000 jobs - well that sucks but it's your fault for that too. Then you get to hear what a drain on society you are because now you have to rely on a government program like social security or medicare. Who want's sick or old people around anyway..what do you think this is??? A socialist country??? sammieswife.

  • UnConfused
    UnConfused

    Would you consider our road and hospital system socialistic? War is pretty expensive.

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