John 19:14, a devastating contradiction?

by DT 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  BurnTheShips

  Hi JosephMalik

  When are all these things on the Jewish calendar?

  The problem is that apparently was more than one Jewish calendar in use! The different gospels could be using different Jewish liturgical calendars to date events.

  They were divided on many issues, especially with regard to the liturgical calendar.

  The Sadducees and the priests who were in charge of the Temple followed a lunar calendar of 354 days. That calendar set the date of the Jewish festivals on the basis of lunar cycles. Thus Passover was celebrated on a different weekday (on the solar calendar) each year.

  When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered at Qumran in the middle of the last century, they revealed that the Essenes, a Jewish sect of Jesus' time, had a different calendar. Theirs was a 364-day solar calendar. On this calendar, the festivals always occurred on the same day of the week.

  The Jews who followed the Essene calendar always observed the Passover on Tuesday night (which for them was the start of Wednesday). Did Jesus use the Essene calendar and celebrate the Passover with His disciples on Tuesday? Was the Last Supper, therefore, held on Tuesday night instead of Thursday night? Some scholars argue rather persuasively that this is indeed what happened.

  In support of their argument, they point out that an Essene community did live in Jerusalem, in the same part of the city where, according to tradition, the Upper Room was located. Jesus would have been aware that if He followed the Temple calendar, He would die before He could celebrate the Passover. It is possible He decided to follow the Essene calendar, celebrating Passover on Tuesday night.

  This interpretation resolves two apparent chronological discrepancies between the Synoptics and the fourth Gospel. According to Mark 14:1, Christ's anointing at Bethany occurred "two days" before the Passover. Yet John 12:1 reports that event took place "six days" before the Passover. There would be no discrepancy if the Synoptics have in mind the Essene Passover on Tuesday, and the fourth Gospel the Temple Passover on Friday evening.

  After His arrest, and before His crucifixion, Jesus was subjected to lengthy legal procedures. He was brought before Annas (see Jn 18:13,19-23); before Caiaphas (Jn 18:24); before the Sanhedrin (Lk 22:66-71); before Herod (Lk 23:6-11); before Pilate (Jn 18:28-40).

  All this could hardly have taken place in only a night and part of a day. The theory that Jesus celebrated the Passover on Tuesday night allows time for all these proceedings.

  Three ancient sources agree in saying that Jesus presided at the Last Supper on a Tuesday night: a second- or third-century document called the Didascalia Apostolorum; St. Victorinus (third century); and St. Epiphanius (fourth century). The first two sources also tell us this is why early Christians fasted and did penance on Wednesdays and Fridays. These two days bracketed the time of the beginning and end of Jesus' passion.

  Burn
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  Awakened07

  It may not be a devastating contradiction; it may not be a contradiction at all.

  -What it does show however, is that the divinely inspired gospel writers were 'allowed' to describe events as they personally had seen or perceived them. There are other examples, like one writer saying a garment was scarlet, and another saying it was purple. Now, this comes as no surprise to most Christians, as a big part of the point of having four gospels according to them is to have four eye witness accounts. My questions to that though, are: If God allowed His writers to add their own personal perceptions of events, did He then also allow for instance Paul to write down his own theological ideas? How strict was it? If not very strict, then what does it mean to be divinely inspired in the first place? It seems opinions among Christians on this range from "every word is explicitly written by God through men" to "it was written down by fallible men trying to contemplate and convey God's thoughts to the best of their own understanding."
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  M.J.

  Good point, Awakened. It seems like to Paul, the crucial thing that needed to come across was "the gospel", which he broadly defined in 1 Cor 15:3-4,
  
  "I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."
  
  Gal 1:6-12 shows he was ticked off about the distortion of the basic, foundational message, and he goes on to describe how IT specifically was received by divine revelation, and now he was trying to describe the direct revelation through a letter. I'm thinking that not even Paul considered his own letters to be a transcription of God's own words.
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  JosephMalik

  Burntheships,

  You make a lot of assumptions. But anyone following the Law of Moses would come to only one conclusion and this is what we are talking about. Answer the questions and then you should know the answer. What you have gathered so far should tell you that nearly everyone has it wrong. You said:

  After His arrest, and before His crucifixion, Jesus was subjected to lengthy legal procedures. He was brought before Annas (see Jn 18:13,19-23); before Caiaphas (Jn 18:24); before the Sanhedrin (Lk 22:66-71); before Herod (Lk 23:6-11); before Pilate (Jn 18:28-40).

  All this could hardly have taken place in only a night and part of a day. The theory that Jesus celebrated the Passover on Tuesday night allows time for all these proceedings.

  One must be brain dead not to realize that a great deal of time was involved in all this. And yet they say nothing, so that much was OK, but your theory is wrong. Forget about your ancient sources, they did not know the answer either. Use only the Bible the way I did and you will come to the correct answers without contradictions. This was all written up over 25 years ago but you will find a fairly detailed account in the supplement to my book called Beyond Watchtower doctrine at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/

  Joseph
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  BurnTheShips

  Forget about your ancient sources, they did not know the answer either.

  That right there sounds like a bad idea. I will read your page however.

  Many thanks.

  Burn
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  BluesBrother

  Do you want to see what The Borg say about it ?

  it-2 p. 583 Passover ***

  Preparation." At John 19:14, the apostle John, in the midst of his description of the final part of Jesus’ trial before Pilate, says: "Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour [of the daytime, between 11:00 a.m. and noon]." This, of course, was after the time of the Passover meal, which had been eaten the night before. Similar expressions are found at verses 31 and 42. Here the Greek word pa·ra·skeu·e´ is translated "preparation." This word seems to mark, not the day preceding Nisan 14, but the day preceding the weekly Sabbath, which, in this instance, was "a great one," namely, not only a Sabbath by virtue of being Nisan 15, the first day of the actual Festival of Unfermented Cakes, but also a weekly Sabbath. This is understandable, since, as already stated, "Passover" was sometimes used to refer to the entire festival

  * it-1 p. 1153 Hour ***

  A Seeming Discrepancy. Some have pointed to what appears to be a discrepancy between the statement at Mark 15:25, which says Jesus was impaled at "the third hour," and that at John 19:14, which indicates that by "about the sixth hour" Jesus’ final trial before Pilate was just ending. John had access to Mark’s account, and he certainly could have repeated the time stated by Mark. Therefore John must have had a reason for stating the hour differently from Mark.

  Why the seeming discrepancy? A variety of suggestions have been offered. None of these satisfy all objections. We simply do not have enough information to explain with any certainty the reason for this difference between the accounts. Perhaps Mark’s or John’s reference to the hour was parenthetical, not in chronological order. Whatever the case, one thing is certain: Both writers were inspired by holy spirit.

  The synoptic Gospels clearly indicate that by the sixth hour, or 12 noon, Jesus had already been hanging on the stake long enough for the soldiers to cast lots over his garments and for the chief priests, the scribes, the soldiers, and other passersby to speak abusively of him. They also indicate that about 3:00 p.m. Jesus expired. (Mt 27:38-45; Mr 15:24-33; Lu 23:32-44) The truly important thing to remember is that Jesus died for our sins on Nisan 14, 33 C.E.—Mt 27:46-50; Mr 15:34-37; Lu
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  JosephMalik

  A Seeming Discrepancy. Some have pointed to what appears to be a discrepancy between the statement at Mark 15:25, which says Jesus was impaled at "the third hour," and that at John 19:14, which indicates that by "about the sixth hour" Jesus’ final trial before Pilate was just ending. John had access to Mark’s account, and he certainly could have repeated the time stated by Mark. Therefore John must have had a reason for stating the hour differently from Mark.

  Blues Brothers,

  There you see. They cannot think. And millions follow them. It is amazing the hoops they jump through as a result of their ignorance. Anyone reading John could see that he interleaved his Gospel with the others. He did not use a different clock. He did not bother to repeat things already covered adequately like the meal itself which he jumped over (which means he knew what the others said) or such clock times but he did cover the arguments they had and the foot washing that happened afterward since this was missing in the others. And it is a simple matter to calculate the third hour after the sixth hour. After all their always is a third hour after the sixth hour but it is the third hour of the night which is around 9PM our time. If you follow along or know what is going on there is no need to say night. This would be easily known by following the other Gospels stories as John was doing. But of course this is too much for their anointed super governing body class of experts filled with the spirit(s) to figure out. Now where we do not have such good references to time the scriptures will fill out the time like this: Ac 23:23 And he called unto him two centurions, saying, Make ready two hundred soldiers to go to Caesarea, and horsemen threescore and ten, and spearmen two hundred, at the third hour of the night; There you go, proof that this was easy to figure out and this is the way they told time. And it was already preparation day since days started in the evening. Takes seconds to work the problem. But what does this mean? That our Lord was nailed up at night and spent some 18 hours hanging before his death. Nothing unusual about that either. The story does not pick up again until the next daylight period around noon but still a day of preparation. Now in a few more hours our Lord would die and a high sabbath would follow. This high sabbath was 48 hours long since the Passover sabbath's seventh day or Friday was followed by a Sabbath day or Saturday. This also means that everything else they are teaching about that festival is dreamed up just like this example you provided was. Truth is stranger than fiction. It is way past time to start thinking for yourself.

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  doesn't it seem strange to anyone but me that Jesus celebrates the passover meal with his disciples-when HE was the passover sacrifice? He is the 'passover lamb' but he is eating the meal with his disciples? Shouldn't the passover meal happen AFTER his death? Just some thoughts:)

  JWDaughter,

  Jesus is the human Passover Lamb that was depicted by the animals sacrificed. But nowhere does it teach the Jesus must die at the same time as these non-human Lambs. After all these Lambs were killed BEFORE Passover and in preparation for it and not during it. Jesus was killed during Passover which was a week long or seven days. Even the preparation day on which He died was still DURING this Passover and not apart from it. Yes, Jesus ate this Passover Lamb that depicted His own sacrifice some six days later. And this meal is ALWAYS on a Sabbath and in fact starts the calendar running for the seven day Passover week. It is impossible for Jesus to suffer and die by the next afternoon as this was still the first Sabbath day of Passover. It was the Law that determined this not WT musings. But this does show that they know NOTHING about this historic event and corrupt it just like they do the rest of the scriptures in their printed material. It is out there for the world to see. Did anyone notice?

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  He was not held in custody for six days during the passover! That goes against the time he Partook! So Bull!

  Sarah Smiles,

  Nice shot but the only Bull involved may be a can containing some alcohol. Oh, tasty too. I prefer Rebel Yell but Budweiser and some others will do. And yes, Red Bull is nice sometimes.

  You said: Why would you ever want to think they held him for six day is only in you own thinking. I have never read any theology agree with you! I think you should know better as far as teaching something that goes completely against the bible!

  Because I took the time to study this event and know better. The rest are just blowing smoke up your nose? just like the WT. The Bible agrees with what I am saying. Perhaps now you will have a reason to really study it for yourself. Those noted scholars out there could not figure it out and there is still plenty of hidden material in that book to discover. Look at the way they fabricated a Governing body for what was really an apostate group. Look at the way they abuse Paul’s writings which supported women for their view which abuses them. Look at the way they take a false teaching which was used to nearly kill Paul to support their blood transfusion policies. Look at how they preach that Christ will not return in the flesh as an immortal human being which John calls Antichrist. And it goes on an on like this. You know the trinity, hell fire and immortal soul is screwed up and theologians support it. Forget about them and study it for yourself.

  Joseph