Just another knot in the rope !
John 19:14, a devastating contradiction?
by DT 28 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Must obey!
Why should John have to mention the passover meal? His gospel was written some time after the others, so the writer may have felt it wasn't necessary to go over old ground. The Johannine gospel differs markedly from the synoptic gospels in any event. It has a different purpose to those gospels. NT 101.
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JWdaughter
Must obey said"Why should John have to mention the passover meal? His gospel was written some time after the others, so the writer may have felt it wasn't necessary to go over old ground. The Johannine gospel differs markedly from the synoptic gospels in any event. It has a different purpose to those gospels."
I always thought that John was most likely written by an actual apostle I(same John that wrote Revelation). IF the other gospels were written by matthew, mark, and luke-come-latelies, more likely the John account would be the most accurate and relevant. OTOH, I don't remember for sure if that is the 'thought' about the gospels.
I know the die hard "all scripture is inspired" crowd would reject any idea that some could be more accurate than others, or more inspired-so I hope all you folks will forgive my skeptical nature coming through on this topic. -
Sarah Smiles
What are your thoughts on this?
Okay I spent sometime looking everything up! That was a good post!
Mathew account
1When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2"As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."
Numbers 28:16 "On the fourteenth day of the first month the LORD’s Passover is to be held. 17 On the fifteenth day of this month there is to be a festival; for seven days eat bread made without yeast. 18 On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. 19 Present to the LORD an offering made by fire, a burnt offering of two young bulls, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. 20 With each bull prepare a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil; with the ram, two-tenths; 21 and with each of the seven lambs, one-tenth.
Leviticus 23:4 " 'These are the LORD's appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: 5 The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. 6 On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast."
It sounds like the feast of Unleaven Bread begins on the 15th day of Nisan. The 14 day was held to proclaim the appointed times! Mathew 26:17 it states on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the came to Jesus and asked, Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover? and in 20 when evening came Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve.
Mathew 27:17 "On the first day the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus and asked Where do you want to make preparations for you to eat the Passover."Leviticus 23:5 the Passover begins at twilight on 14 day of the 1st month but on the 15 the feast unleavened bread started.
Mathew 27:1 early in the morning all the chief priest and the elders of the people came to the decision to put Jesus to death! Nisan 16
Mathew 27:45 "from the six hour until the ninth hour" could be until noon until 3:00p.m.
Mathew 27:62 "The next day one after Preparaton Day, the chief priest and the Pharisees went to Pilate" According to the footnotes in the NIV it states The next day, the one after Preparation Day. Saturday, the Sabbath. Friday was the preparation day for the Sabbath (sunset Friday to Sunset Saturday)
John claims that Jesus died prior to the Sabbath day, a special Passover day. The Fest of Passover was seven days long.
John 19:14 "It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour."
How could that be? When the disciples went to Jesus on the day of preparation for the Unleavened Bread? On Nisan 15th because Nisan 14 would be the announcement time.
Unless the disciples went to Jesus on Nisan 14th the next day he was judged on Nisan 15 the first day of Unleavened bread. But Jesus eats on the first day of Unleavened Bread with the twelve and they prepared that day with him so he could have not died on Nisan 14 or 15th. Well maybe the day time was for preparation time and evening time for seven days were the meals! Nevertheless Jesus and the twelve had the Last Supper on Nisan 14 or 15 and it was the next day the day after Preparation that Jesus died! Preparation day was on the same day that Jesus had his Last Supper with the twelve.
I guess I will be studying this until I am blue in the face! Perhaps John was speaking about the Preparation of the Special Passover Sabbath!
One has to ask, were the preparation days seven days long with the evening as the Feast of Unleaven Bread? So I started with Jesus Last Supper as the first even meal so there would have been seven Preparation days and Seven Passover evenings? Still the first one would have been on the 15th!
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JosephMalik
DT,
I have explained this many times here on this board. The WT does not understand it just as you and others do not understand it. But this is no reason to call it a contradiction. The Passover is how long? A few hours? one meal? Seven Days? And is it a Sabbath day when this meal is eaten? Is it still a Sabbath day the next afternoon? Was our Lord killed on a Sabbath day? How many days of preparation are their during Passover? One? More? If there are more than one then why? What was the wave harvest and when did it begin? When was the unleavened bread prepared from new grain? When are all these things on the Jewish calendar? These are just some of the questions that should be asked and when answered correctly you will learn that our Lord was held in Roman custody for six days during passover and nailed up at night around nine PM or on the third hour on a day of preparation, on the day when they were preparing unleavened bread from new grain for that sabbath day that also was the seventh day of Passover.
Joseph
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Chap
I was reading somewhere about a theory that this may have been the year of Jubilee so this would be a special Passover. I haven't investigated this though. Just throwing something else out there for what it is worth.
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Farkel
: What are your thoughts on this?
There are the 3 synoptic Gospels.......................and then there is the Gospel of John.
John is and has been a thorn in the ass of theologians since forever.
How does one reconcile the differences between the synoptics and John? Well, for me, it is easy. They are ALL bullshit!
Farkel
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Sarah Smiles
Joseph I see you still blowing smoke because you answer is wrong!
These are just some of the questions that should be asked and when answered correctly you will learn that our Lord was held in Roman custody for six days during passover and nailed up at night around nine PM or on the third hour on a day of preparation, on the day when they were preparing unleavened bread from new grain for that sabbath day that also was the seventh day of Passover.
He was not held in custody for six days during the passover! That goes against the time he Partook! So Bull! He Partook on the first evening of the Passover Feast then that same night they came and arrested him. They could not set up a trial during the evening so they waited. The next day, they set a trial for him. The day after the apostles prepared for Passover! Why would you ever want to think they held him for six day is only in you own thinking. I have never read any theology agree with you! I think you should know better as far as teaching something that goes completely against the bible!
Some one posted that historical writings are against Johns writings or the book of Johns that just blowing more smoke! so it is bull! Historical authors enjoy studying Johns books as much as the majority of people with the same types of questions.
I hope that Jehovah's Witnesses as well as our youth who are exJDUB will consider reading historical views on Jesus! Choose good theological authors, because some are miss guiding and have their own slant and are out to make money. It is an exciting time to read about the Bible the historical facts about Jesus and the authors of the bibles books. Most would not want to take away from their works but just wander why the differences and which one could have copied or if they did copy. I enjoyed reading and have Bart Erhman books. I had to draw my own conclusions as I hope others will.
I wish you the best in your findings about Passover!
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BurnTheShips
Here is a thought. Jewish reckoning of the start of a day and the hours of the day is not the same as the Roman one. Also, the length of hours was not fixed as it is today. Roman summer hours were much longer than winter ones.
Maybe John's gospel used the Roman day/time system, the synoptics used the Jewish one. John's was the last gospel written, to a much more gentile audience (and that this intended audience was different is borne out in many other details of his account).
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BurnTheShips
The Bible contains many contradictions that can possibly be reconciled if you have enough imagination, but this contradiction seems pretty blatant.
As you note the gospel accounts state the following:
Mark 15:25 says: "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him." (According to Jewish time reckoning the third hour would be about 9 in the morning.)
In John's gospel sixth hour is said as being before Jesus was handed over to be crucified, whereas Mark states Jesus was crucified the third hour (our 9 AM).
It seems like a clear contradiction, but not necessarily. Both can be true, depending on you point of view.
We notice that the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) use the same time frame:
"From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" Matt 27:45-46
"It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour.(our 3PM)." Luke 23:44
"And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get. It was the third hour (our 9AM)when they crucified him." Mark 15:24-25
"Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him. At the sixth hour(our Noon)darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour(our 3PM).And at the ninth hour(our 3PM)Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Mark 15:32-34
However if we read the gospel of John it states that Jesus was handed over to be crucified at approximately the sixth hour which seems to contradict the other three gospels:
"When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour. "Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews." John 19:13-14, 16
What seems to be a contradiction disappears when we look at the context of the authorship and the intended audiences.
John wrote his account sometime between 80 AD and 98 AD, probably from Ephesus where it is held that he spent many years. John's constant clarification of Jewish terms and culture in his gospel evidences that it was written for gentiles and therefore is explains time events using the Roman system. Ephesus was the capital of the Roman providence of Asia, and it operated under the Roman system of timekeeping instead of the Jewish one. The Jewish hour system (I believe the night time measures were called "watches") started from sunup, approximately 6AM. the older synoptics used the Jewish time system, and state that the third hour (9AM) was the crucifixion, the sixth hour (Noon) was the start of darkness, and finally that the ninth hour (3PM) was the time of Jesus’ death. Roman timekeeping started at midnight (much like our own system because we inherited the Roman one), and when John states that Jesus was handed over to be crucified sometime after the sixth hour he is referencing that time -- 6AM. The 3 hours from the time Jesus was handed over to Pilate for crucifixion (after 6AM), until the actual crucifixion itself (9AM) fits the time frame perfectly.
Burn