I term myself as an agnostic because I cannot say with any certainty that there is no cosmic intelligence.
That said, I completely reject the notion of a personal God that created humans and the earth and is keenly interested in our servitude.
For me it was the quest for knowledge. Most notably astronomy and astrophysics. When you step back and look at the whole universe, then reread religious books you see how ignorant the writers were.
Finding the holy books of old tainted, it was easy for me to reject the idea of a personal God.
Still, looking at how much and how little we know about our planet and universe, I am deeply humbled that I lack the ability to ever understand even the smallest fraction of it. But my acknowledgment of my own ignorance does not create the necessity of there being a God for me as it does in others.
I am content that I am alive now and realize that while I may never understand the secrets of the universe, if I work towards it I will at least be part of a massive movement spanning thousands of years to come.
It is somewhat depressing to think that I will not be around to see the new breakthroughs, but no amount of wishful thinking will create a heaven for me if one does not already exist. I've conceded to myself that I will die one day, the laughable reality is that if there does end up being a hell, it will end up being a far greater alternative to my current belief. In hell, at least I would still be alive. :D
The Steps Between JWism and Atheism
by compound complex 62 Replies latest jw friends
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Paralipomenon
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onacruse
Wow! So many really meaningful self-observations on this topic.
CoCo:
I recently put up a thread entitled "When Can I Comment?" New to the thought process of critical thinking...
LOL, yes indeed! There was a thread long ago (well, it seems like long ago, anyway) wherein hillary_step made a valid observation about me, along the lines of "Craig, it appears you have been more of an accumulator of information than being a critical thinker." It took me about 1 minute of self-reflection to realize that he was correct...so I too am still trying to develop the skills of critical thinking, albeit with varying degrees of success.
The difference is that my mental barriers have fallen away.
I might suggest that they haven't fallen away, but that you've reached the point where you are deliberately taking them away. As AlanF warned me, "Craig, you realize that you're stepping onto a slippery slope! Are you sure you want to go there?" Well, I was, and it wasn't an accident, but a choice.
What dots I am yet unable to connect are those tracing the evolution of the thought processes of a card-carrying, true-believer Jehovah's Witness to those of an atheist.
I wouldn't say that atheism is the inevitable result of going down that slippery slope. Myself, I'm an agnostic. Again to reflect something that hillary_step said recently (and more than once): I don't know that there is a God, and I don't know that there isn't a God, but I'd gladly embrace the existence of God when and if it was ever undeniably demonstrated to me. However, that demonstration wouldn't be based on extrinsic evidence, but on a personal and direct interaction between God and me. And that, too, would remain something that I couldn't prove to anyone else, but only to say "I believe in God, because I have interacted with God."
My interest lies in whether it was a gradual change in thinking while you were still a JW or if you had an epiphany that forced your exit, mentally if not physically. Or were you totally out and allowing yourself to read materials once avoided? Was the path to your current thinking straight and readily defined or a series of zigs and zags?
For me, pre- and post-exJW, it's been pretty much an inexorable process, though somewhat more like a punctuated evolution than a steady step-by-step process...and I can look back now and see where I had several opportunities to accelerate the process, but kept running back down into that comfortable and familiar rabbit-hole.
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lonelysheep
Great posts, here!
I always kind of suspected that god was a made up figment of humans' imaginations. By the time I began studying with the jw's at 21 (by golly-just like that JWD Character Fullofdoubtnow/Linda!), I had spent enough time in various churches to be done w/religion. Prior to age 21, I hated god. Still, I wanted to believe in the bible god, or the universal-non religious god or the divine being/higher power/answer to what happens when we die other then we are just dead....etc.
After pulling back from their bible studies and meetings, I began to question them, then other religions--like whether I should be with them or not, and then I questioned the existence of a divine being. I meditated deeply on the possibility of a divine being and realized that although it was possible given humans' requirements for such, it sure as heck wasn't likely.
"How on earth can I ever live without God?!" I cried. I had never actually lived WITH god in the first place. I was born with a LACK of belief until my parents/grandparents (shoot-everyone around me!!!) drilled the belief in my head. Since there is nothing telling me "I am god" except those who try to escape from greystone park, I simply let it go and accepted that I had to embrace a new way of living, of thinking--that is completely absent of a higher being's involvement. There was no risk of anyone getting hurt in all of this.
That was the only change. I was still me, I learned. -
changeling
As a good witness a lot of things did not add up. One example is animals not eating other animals in paradise. It does not take a scientist to figure out that animals eating each other keeps things in balance. Also, why do lions and tigers and bears have sharp fangs and claws while cows and horses do not????
Anyway, once I stripped myself of the WT's beliefs, I was left with a clean slate. Here I could think and analize things that had bothered me for years. Once I did, the very concept of a god who demands "exclusive devotion" or else, but calls himself loving simply made no sense.
From there I started paying attention to articles and programs about evolution and saw how logical the concept really is.
Once that was in place, the need for a narcissistic god was completely lost.
I can tell you that the feeling I have now is much more secure and peaceful then what I felt as a believer.
changeling
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Awakened07
The atheist is not the big, bad meanie who storms into the room of the infant and steals the blankie and pacifier.
The atheist is not the big, bad meanie who runs into the kitchen and snatches the comforting cookies out of the hands of the lonely mother.
The atheist is only accused of doing so.
The atheist is the person who has the unthankful 'job' of pointing out that there already is no detectable blankie or pacifier in the cradle, and no cookies in the kitchen cabinet.
Not a very popular person, the atheist.
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Open mind
My experience has been similar to Awakened07 & Nvr's. One thing that took me a long time to come to terms with was the fear of Sky God/Bible God killing me (hammer) and losing out on eternal life (carrot).
The Atheist's Wager (Nvr 1st told me about it) was very comforting to me in this regard:
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You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in God. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.
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(Some have commented that it would more accurately be called the "Agnostics Wager" but I'll stay off that semantic side road.) I will tack on this last bit of my own:
If there is a God and he ends up being 100% as the Wacktower describes him (genocidal, misogynistic, cruel, ruthless, etc.) then gimme a headband, a goatee and a "worldly" scowl so I can pose for the Great Tribulation pictures in the Revelation Climax Book! There's NO WAY I would want to serve him. At least the WT says he won't roast me forever. I'll give them that.
FWIW, I still believe in "something", but I have ZERO empirical proof. Intellectually, I think the atheists generally come out ahead in honest debates I have read. My belief is a gut level thing that could easily be explained away in many ways. Still, for now, I can't shake it. More likely an admission of my own hard-wired neuroses and certainly no statement of any moral superiority.
Enjoy the ride CoCo!
Open Mind
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proplog2
With me has taken a long time. I don't jump around a lot in my thinking. First I try to tuck point the foundation. Then I knock out the loose bricks. Now when I look back I see that I have completely rebuilt the whole house.
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hamsterbait
Who is it wrote the lines:
-- something about God creating us the way we are, like worms(??) then
"So spit your curses in the Celestial Face
Even though you be answered (answered!!)
By annihilation from the whirlwind.
We fractured men surmise a mercy
that no god has shown."
HB
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Rabbit
My journey from agnostic (I dunno) to JWism (I absolutely know!) to agnostic (I still really don't know) took around 35 years.
I really wanted to believe that a god cared for humankind. I wanted to believe He was among us, He listened to our prayers and would, in the end, be there to 'save the day.'
My mind had to be opened to a real life fact -- I had to be honest to myself -- *I* have never seen a god. 'He' hasn't performed any miracles or answered any prayers -- that I have ever seen. Every year, every day of my life has passed by with only 'normal' things happening that have been occurring throughout human history. Tidal waves, earthquakes, childbirths & deaths, sun up, sun down, wars, pestilence, disease...and it happens to everybody. Every country. Every religion.
If there is a god, he doesn't care or doesn't plan on getting involved. And, I don't care about gods. I care about my wife, my kids, relatives, friends, mankind and *me*. And *I* have done more for those people around me, than any god ever has. Because...I am here !
Humans, for the most part are doers of good and bad. Godz on the other seem to be promisers.
"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday...for a hamburger today ?" ~remember Popeye's friend ___?
Rabbit
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TD
This is the sequence of events I've observed over the years
1. Believing JW
2. JW with doubts
3. JW for Reform
4. XJW
5, XJW Mainstream Christian Phase
6. XJW Liberal Christian Phase
7. XJW Vaguely Christian Phase
8. XJW Independent Theist Phase
9. XJW Vaguely Theistic Phase (Fideism or Deism)
10. XJW Agnostic
11. XJW Atheist.
Not everyone who ends up as an atheist goes through every single stage listed and many stop at a phase they are comfortable with and go no further.
But that's the general progression anyhow.