Help please (Leolaia, Narkissos?).

by Awakened07 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Awakened07

  Not sure if these are stupid questions or not, but I just thought of it all last night, and would like to have it answered:

  So - the Jews around the time Jesus came around were apparently expecting a Messiah to show up, because of the prophecies in the OT. So they were waiting for the Messiah to 'arrive' at the time. This is what I learned as a JW. But suddenly last night, I tried to see it from a Jewish perspective; as if I were a Jew living back then and seeing the events with their eyes. My current perspective is 'of course' a modern Christian one, as I grew up as a JW.

  So, first question: I was wondering; is there confirmation of this (that they were awaiting a Messiah at the time) from extra-biblical, Jewish historical sources from that time? It's not that I find it unbelievable, I'd just like to have it confirmed.

  Secondly: The Jews of Jesus' time evidently chose to reject him as the Messiah/Christ, according to the gospels. Are there any extra-biblical, Jewish historical sources from the time confirming this?

  I find it strange if there are no Jewish writers mentioning that 1) The promised Messiah was about to come, and 2) that later, many proclaimed to be that Messiah, but that the Jews chose to reject them all (including, but not necessarily limited to Jesus).

  Are there any Jewish, contemporary (of the time) sources that show this? Josephus won't count IMO if he wrote about it, as he didn't write until much later. I'm thinking of the period from before Jesus' birth, until just after his death.

  Thanks.
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  R.Crusoe

  Scriptures like Is 9;6 come to mind but I don't know the Jews take on this. Also it would appear that many of Jesus followers would think the end was nigh, just as JWs today, from some of the things he is alleged to have said. If anyone knew 2000 years onward the world would still be as mixed up as ever maybe they wouldn't be so convinced in their day it was an Earth changing quest for peace. Life since then has been far from peaceful and lots of that by denominations of groups claiming to follow Jesus. On a world wide scale I wonder which religions have maintained a peace stance through the centuries?
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  snowbird

  I don't pretend to be either a Leolaia or a Narkissos, but I found some fascinating stuff at this site:

  http://www.christian-thinktank.com/messiah.html

  Blessings.

  Sylvia
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  sweetstuff

  Apparently Madonna knows where he is returning.

  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article737207.ece
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  snowbird

  Also, Wayne D. Leeper has two books that touch a little on the subject - Star of Jacob and Prelude to Glory.

  Happy hunting.

  Sylvia
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  Awakened07

  Thanks for the link, snowbird; I have copied it to my Favorites it and will look at it later (have browsed through it now though). It seems to be pretty spot-on for what I was asking.

  I guess though that perhaps the premise for my query was a little "off" - what I had honestly hoped for, was that there were Jewish historians, writing pretty much in a non-religious way about the current events of the time. Was Josephus really the very first Jewish historian to write in pretty much that manner? I had hoped there were some from say 100BC to ~30AD. Anyway - I don't really doubt they were hoping the Messiah would appear at the time, it would just be nice to have it confirmed by a contemporary historian. In the same manner, it would have been nice to have such a historian tell of how they had to reject several Messiahs. I guess if I am to understand this all, I'll have to look into Jewish history as well, to see how they "coped" with not having a Messiah after all, and how they have "coped" with it since then.
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  snowbird

  You're welcome.

  It would be interesting to find the info for which you are searching. If I come across anything else, I'll gladly pm you.

  As far as how the Jews coped with their disappointment, my understanding is that many are still looking for the Messiah.

  Sylvia
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  jgnat

  Here's a wikipedia link to the Pharisees. It mentions some of their religious leanings, including belief in the Messiah.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

  I've most often heard Josephus quoted as the closest historian to his time. Even so some of his information gathering would not stand up to modern scrutinty. But give the guy credit. He wrote a bunch of stuff down that was valuable to a lot of people.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

  You gotta understand how rare source documents are from two thousand years ago. They didn't have publishing houses as they do today. If a document was considered particularly valuable, it was copied, painstakingly, by hand. Then it could all be destroyed by fire, conflict, or flood.

  I often wonder what was lost at the destruction of the Library at Alexandria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria
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  5go

  There is a good web site I like it points to the fact that there are none. www.jesusneverexisted.com

  It pull a lot of resources together to point out the lack of any proof other than the bible. In fact does a good job of pointing out christians weren't really perscuted beyond breaking laws they damn well knew better than to break like blashpemy against certain deities near their temples.

  Which would be akin to a muslim or an atheist taking bad about Jesus today in a christian country next to a church. Not a good idea even today!
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  Awakened07

  I often wonder what was lost at the destruction of the Library at Alexandria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

  Yeah, I've always been "annoyed" (if that's the right word) that that happened, and I read that Wiki page only a few days ago, in fact. It does seem though, that it may not have been such a huge loss as I first thought. It seems they copied the scrolls of anyone coming "to town", and then let them go away with their original again (or, other times, go away with a copy!). If that is true, I guess most of the scrolls existed somewhere else. Still - would've been nice to have it all from one place. I wonder if that library would have survived later religious crusades (and whatever the Islamic counterpart to that is) anyway, though.