Help please (Leolaia, Narkissos?).

by Awakened07 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    There was no united and consistent concept of "Messiah" among Jews prior to Christianity.

    Some segments of Judaism (e.g. the Sadducees and the Hellenistic philosophical school as represented by Philo of Alexandria) had practically no use for the kind of eschatology (end-time doctrine) which is essential to the notion of "Messiah".

    Others like the Essenes apparently had room for several Messiahs, at least a kingly (Son of David) and a priestly (Son of Aaron / Zadoq) one.

    The later rabbinical view of the Messiah (as evidenced in the Talmud and later Judaism) reflects essentially the Pharisaic stance (which became central to Judaism in the aftermath of the Jewish War), and obviously reacts to the contemporary Christian Messianism (or Christology in the making).

    So the idea that some kind of "identikit picture" of the Messiah was available to all Jews to be recognised in Jesus, making his rejection a deliberate "sin" (although fulfilling the "prophecies"!) only makes sense from a Christian anachronistic perspective. Unfortunately, this idea (which is rooted in the NT) became very popular and fueled Christian antisemitism for centuries.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    hi...I'm reading a book now called The Christian and The Pharisee...haven't gotten that far into it but Rabbi David Rosen states that the "idea" of a Messiah that comes to save souls isn't part of the thought surrounding "the Messiah", but more so a social/political figure was invisioned. " the condition of one's personal soul has nothing to do with the identity of the Messiah but is a matter between the individual and God."

    Dr. R.T. Kendall did state that the story of the passover would seem to show otherwise. The belief that the Hebrew people HAD to put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and the door header or be killed (at the first passover)would indicate some sort of belief in a savior of souls in that they did as they were "commanded" ( this does seem to anticipate the blood that flowed from the head and hands of Jesus too!)

    love michelle

    (this is a bad paraphraseso you might want to read the book yourself)

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    So, first question: I was wondering; is there confirmation of this (that they were awaiting a Messiah at the time) from extra-biblical, Jewish historical sources from that time? It's not that I find it unbelievable, I'd just like to have it confirmed.

    I think Narkissos answered the query very well. Judaism of the time was very diverse, comparable to the diversity in Christianity in the Nicene period. Scholars even debate whether there was really such a thing as Judaism per se, as opposed to an open-ended spectrum of Judean religious thought. Some Jews (i.e. Judeans) were awaiting a "messiah" of some kind but they were a minority, and the eschatological concept of a "messiah" varied considerably from group to group. Sadducees and Hellenized Jews, for instance, did not necessarily have any sort of future-oriented eschatology, whereas different kinds of eschatological figures were expected or imagined in different apocalyptic traditions. To give some examples, in Enochic Judaism (= proto-Essenism), both Enoch and Elijah were supposed to come ahead of Judgement Day to turn the hearts of men to repentance (cf. the Animal Apocalypse, written in c. 160 BC, and cf, Sirach and Malachi with respect to Elijah), and this meme reappeared in Christian apocalypticism of the second and third centuries AD, and the same expectation appears in modified form in Revelation, ch. 11 (in which Moses takes the place of Enoch among the "two witnesses"). In later Enochic/Essene writings, e.g. the Book of Parables from the first century AD, Enoch alone appears as the central eschatological figure, called the "Son of Man", the "Anointed One", etc. who will judge mankind on Judgement Day. The gospels are probably literarily dependent on the Book of Parables, which anticipates many Christian notions about Jesus, except that this writing identifies the Son of Man with Enoch (at least in its latest redaction, but cf. the apocalyptic role of Enoch throughout Enochic tradition as the heavenly scribe, the author of the "books of life" that are opened on Judgement Day). The gospels also reflect knowledge of the tradition that Elijah was destined to come and bring hearts around to God. Other Essene writings expect a priestly messiah with an altogether different function, i.e. a figure who reverses the corruption of the priesthood and who restores true worship (cf. Melchizedek in 11QMelchizedek). Others patterned the coming eschatological figure after David (i.e. a kingly messiah of the "root of David," who fulfills the promised restoration of the nation of Judah), Moses (i.e. a figure who perfects the Law by giving its authoritative interpretation), Joshua (Josephus mentions a charismatic false prophet who tried to emulate Joshua by trying to dry up the Jordan River), etc. In the Testament of Abraham, even Adam appears as the eschatological judge. One of the most striking examples is the exegesis of Genesis 49:10 in the Herodian and Roman periods, which saw the final king of Israel as a Gentile tyrant (i.e. the "coming" figure of Genesis 49:10 as interpreted as the same person as the "coming prince" of Daniel 9:27, who persecutes God's people in the last week of the 70 weeks). According to one Jewish tradition, the Herodian party interpreted both scriptures as being fulfilled in Herod the Great, and they tried to calculate when the 70 weeks are to run out in order to predict Herod's death. Josephus follows the same exegetical approach but identifies the "coming prince" of Daniel 9:27 as Vespasian, with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfilling the "70 weeks of years" (and the "cutting off of an anointed one" interpreted as the death of high priest Ananus in AD 68, Bellum Judaicum 4.5.2). Josephus, of course, expected the coming destruction of the Roman Empire, as his exegesis of Daniel, ch. 2 makes clear, altho he was not explicit about this in deferrence to his Roman benefactors.

    So, in short, all sorts of things were expected by different people, and many didn't necessarily expect anything at all. Christianity, at the same time, inherited a broad stream of Jewish apocalypticism (remember, pluriform "Christianity" originated as a movement within Judaism) and modified it in many ways of its own.

    Secondly: The Jews of Jesus' time evidently chose to reject him as the Messiah/Christ, according to the gospels. Are there any extra-biblical, Jewish historical sources from the time confirming this?

    That is bit of an oversimplification of the gospels, which present many Jews as becoming believers -- cf. the scene of Jesus being welcomed by the throngs as the "son of David" as he entered Jerusalem. But it is true that the Markan passion narrative, which had a Roman audience (as is clear by the many Latinisms and explanations of Judean culture), sought to place the guilt on the Judean nation (by inverting Deuteronomy 21:1-9 to compose the mob vs. Pilate scene, cf. "set not the guilt of innocent blood in the midst of your people Israel," v. 8), which the Johannine version has clarified by designating the mob as "Jews". No extrabiblical Jewish sources attest to this, of course, and this scene is judged as probably unhistorical by many scholars, noticing the exegetical basis of the passage (as interpreting Jesus in the role of the red heifer who simultaneously constitutes "innocent blood") and the pro-Roman intent in taking guilt off the Roman official Pilate and onto the Jewish people. The theme of the "rejected prophet" also has an OT basis (cf. Jeremiah 2:8, 20:1-2, 26:7-11) and takes up the theme from Mathew 13:53-58 parr. In fact, I think there is a close parallel with Jesus and Jeremiah...both are presented as predicting the destruction of Jerusalem and both depict God as punishing the nation for its bloodguilt.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Here is a short description of the Animal Apocalypse (completed c. 160 BC):

    http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/animalapoc.html

    And here is the relevant quote:

    "And thereafter those three who were clothed in white and had seized me by the hand, who had taken me up [to heaven] before, and the hand of the ram [cf. 89:52] also seizing hold of me, led me in and set me down in the midst of those sheep who were without condemnation. And those sheep were all white and their wool was abundant and clean. And all that had been destroyed and dispersed, and all the beasts of the field, and all the birds of heaven, assembled in that house, and the Lord of the sheep rejoiced with great joy because they were all good and had returned to his house" (1 Enoch 90:31-33).

    If you read the whole of the dream vision, Enoch and Elijah are presented as two people who never saw death but who were exalted to heavenly glory. They then return to earth just before the resurrection, as described here. On other references to the return of Elijah, see the following which I wrote in another post:

    The interpretation that Elijah was indeed carried to heaven and thus did not see death was the predominant one in the Second Temple period, and is presumed in some parts of the NT which refer to expectation of Elijah's return and which refer to Elijah's appearance during the Transfiguration (cf. Matthew 16:14, 17:3-4, 10-11, 27:47, Mark 6:15, 8:28, 9:11-12, 15:35-36, Luke 9:19, 30-33, John 1:21, Revelation 11:6). I have already referred to Malachi 4:5. There is also the Animal Apocalypse from the early second century BC, which states that Elijah was saved from his enemies by bringing him up into heaven to dwell with Enoch (1 Enoch 89:52; cf. 87:3 on the ascension of Enoch to heaven), who would both descend to the earth just before Judgment Day (1 Enoch 90:31, cf. Revelation 11:3-6, which refers to Elijah and Moses, while other sources such as the Apocalypse of Elijah refer to the two witnesses as Enoch and Elijah). Similarly, Sirach (c. 180 BC) states that Elijah "arose like a fire ... taken up in the whirlwind of fire, in a chariot with fiery horses" so that he would return "to allay God's wrath before the fury breaks [i.e. Judgment Day], to turn the hearts of fathers towards their children, and to restore the tribes of Jacob" (48:1, 9-10). The Apocryphon of Elijah in the Dead Sea Scrolls (first century BC), tho damaged, also seems to refer to the return of Elijah "at the end" (4Q382, Fr. 31). See also Josephus, from the first century AD: "Elijah disappeared (aphanisthé) from among men," i.e. he no longer lived "among men" (Antiquities 9.2.2), which does not reflect an interpretation that Elijah was merely lifted to some other place in Israel. The first century AD Vitae Prophetarum also ends Elijah's career with his ascension in the chariot of fire (21:14-15). 4 Ezra (from c. AD 100) also states that those living at the end of the end (when the final trumpet sounds, 6:23) "shall see the men who were taken up, who from their birth have not tasted death, and the heart of man's inhabitants shall be changed and converted to a different spirit," this can only be a reference to Enoch and Elijah, and the reference to hearts being changed parallels the statement in Sirach 48:9-10 about Elijah. The Hebrew Mishnah (from c. AD 200) similarly prophesy Elijah's return, declaring that he will settle all disputes and play a role in resurrecting the dead (Eduyyot 8:7, Sotah 9:15). Finally, the idea that Enoch and Elijah were the only two people to ever escape death and who will return at the End is reported among the church fathers (cf. Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses 5.5.1, Hippolytus, De Antichristo, 47). In contrast to all this, I know of not a single reference to Elijah's journey up the whirlwind as a temporary sojourn to some other place in the land.

    As for the coming of the heavenly priest Melchizedek at the conclusion of an apoclayptic period of 490 years, there is this text (first century BC):

    "And concerning what Scripture says, 'In this year of jubilee you shall return, every one of you, to your property' (cf. Leviticus 25:13) ... The interpretation is that it applies to the Last Days and concerns the captives, just as [Isaiah said: 'To proclaim the jubilee to the captives' (cf. Isaiah 61:1) ... just as .... and from the inheritance of Melchizedek, who will return them to what is rightfully theirs. He will proclaim to them the jubilee, thereby releasing them from the debt of all their sins. He shall proclaim this decree in the first week of the jubilee period that follows nine jubilee periods. Then the 'Day of Atonement' shall follow after the tenth jubilee period, when he shall atone for all the Sons of Light and the people who are predestined to Melchizedek ... and by his might he will judge God's holy ones and so establish a righteous kingdom" (11QMelch 2:2-9).

    This interpretation of Leviticus expands the 49 years of the jubilee period into 490 years (a multiple of the sacred number 10), just as Daniel expands the 70 years of Jeremiah into 490 years (a multiple of the sacred number 7). That is, the loss of freedom and property that occurred through the events of 587 BC led to a literal "captivity" of 49 years with the release of the exiles in the 50th year, but Israel was still kept in spiritual bondage to sin for an additional 10 jubilees (490 years) that would end in the "Day of Atonement" after the 10th jubilee period (i.e. after the 490 years had ended), the long-awaited "jubilee" for the nation of Israel. Another early use of the apocalyptic 490-year period occurs in the Testament of Levi (second or first century BC), which expects an eschatological priest-king:

    "Now I have come to know that for seventy weeks you shall wander astray and profane the priesthood and defile the sacrificial altars. You shall set aside the Law and nullify the words of the prophets by your wicked perversity?.Because you have heard about the seventy weeks, listen also concerning the priesthood. In each jubilee there shall be a priesthood: In the first jubilee the first person to be anointed to the priesthood will be great, and he shall speak to God as father; and this priesthood shall be fully satisfactory to the Lord, and in the days of his joy, he shall rise up for the salvation of the world. In the second jubilee the Anointed One shall be conceived in sorrow of the beloved one, and his priesthood shall be prized and shall be glorified by all. The third priest shall be overtaken by grief, and the fourth priesthood shall be with sufferings, because injustice shall be imposed upon him in a high degree, and all Israel shall hate each one his neighbor. The fifth shall be overcome by darkness; likewise the sixth and the seventh. In the seventh there shall be pollution such as I am unable to declare in the presence of human beings, because only the ones who do these things understand such matters. Therefore they shall be in captivity and will be preyed upon; both their land and their possessions shall be stolen [i.e. the Babylonian Exile]. And in the fifth weekthey shall return to the land of their desolation, and shall restore anew the house of the Lord. In the seventh week there will come priests: idolators, adulterers, money lovers, arrogant, lawless, voluptuaries, pederasts, those who practice bestiality. When vengeance will have come upon them from the Lord, the priesthood will lapse. Then the Lord will raise up a new priest to whom all the words of the Lord will be revealed. He shall effect the judgment of truth over the earth for many days and his star shall rise in heaven like a king; kindling the light of knowledge as day is illuminated by the sun, and he shall be extolled by the whole inhabited world ... and there shall be peace in all the earth" (Testament of Levi 16:1-18:4).

    Although R. H. Charles believed that John Hyrcanus (137-107 BC) was the priest-king mentioned here, it is not clear whether any historical figure lies behind the apocalyptic language here. The date of this oracle is uncertain, and the mixing of weeks and jubilees is confusing here.

  • GoingGoingGone
    GoingGoingGone

    Wow, this is great information.

    I'm bookmarking it for future reference!

    GGG

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07

    Thanks for all the replies, and the hard work involved.

    Now to wrap my brain around all this information...

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Interesting. But regarding the concept of an expected messiah, particularly in connection with Herod, there is some interesting perceptions we can draw from coinage of all things.

    It would seem that Herod included a star in his coins that some interpreted as related to the messiah. Another rare coin found believed to have been mented in 6 BC likewise depicts a ram looking back at a star and was thought to relate to the coming of the "star of Judah" in connection with a coming king. So "messiah" from a religious point of view, as has been noted by others, wasn't the focus Christians have of a personal savior but a coming king of Judah would would conquer the romans and release them from bondage. I think this coin is most significant, therefore, with regard to the focus of these times as being the one in which a "king-messiah" would appear:

    Here's the coin with notations: http://www.eclipse.net/~molnar/ARIES.GIF

    Here's the comment:

    alt

    How did you find the coin and what did it tell you?
    My hobby is collecting ancient Roman and Greek coins that have celestial symbols. In the spring of 1990 I purchased a lovely bronze coin from ancient Antioch which portrayed the zodiacal sign, Aries the Ram looking back at an overhead star. I bought the coin for $50. But the coin turned out to be priceless because I found that this was the sign of the zodiac that represented King Herod’s kingdom. The so-called “bible of astrology” the Tetrabiblos of Claudius Ptolemy explained that Aries the Ram controlled the people of “Judea, Idumea, Samaria, Palestine, and Coele Syria” – lands ruled by King Herod. I think the coin was issued by the Romans of Antioch to commemorate their takeover of Judea in AD 6. (p. 120-121) Maybe that’s not the entire answer to the coin, but the important point about the coin is that it led me to find where any celestial omen about the birth of a king of the Jews had to appear. That would have been in Aries, not the constellations proposed by other investigators. This finding started me to think more about the Star of Bethlehem.

    From: http://www.eclipse.net/~molnar/

    Now the author believes this "star" connected with the coming of a king is related to the "star of Bethlehem" tradition but was actually the planet Jupiter which appeared in 6 BC rather than the phenomenon of the star that appeared to the Magi. I tend to think that the coin minted near the time of Herod's death was because of that star that appeared and the populous hope that it represented the promised "prince" out of the house of Judah who would become the king and take over and release the Jews. This is certainly the concept of the Jewish leaders who were anxious to make Jesus the "King of the Jews" and certainly the context understood even by Pilate to inscribed above Jesus' head on the cross (oops! Did I say "cross"?) that he was the "King of the Jews."

    So certainly, the Jews may have not been looking for the "messiah" in the Christian sense but in the political sense, with some concept of the chronology pointing to these times.

    Further, Herod seems to certainly have insinuated himself as the "messiah" including associated traditions for what the messiah would do, besides ruling over the Jews, come and rebuild the temple, one of Herod's major and greatest projects. It begs the question whether or not he was identifying himself with the messiah, egged on my chronologists who may have determined his was the time of the coming messiah, particularly when based upon the revised chronology. The people had two chronologies to deal with that was 82 years apart, determining the apperance of the messiah in either 53 BCE or 29 CE, depending. Herod would have fulfilled the messiah for the former chronology.

    Whether relevant or not, here is some commentary about coinage during the reign of Herod linked to a star figure above the helmet of Herod:

    From: http://members.verizon.net/vze3xycv/HerodHelmet.htm

    Michael Grant 3 proposed that the star like object may refer to a star mentioned in the Hebrew Bible 4 and may have been intended by Herod to suggest that he could be the Messiah.

    So clearly, different Jews and Idumeans were focussing on the coming of a savior-messiah-king during these times, that is quite clear from the coins alone. They had the details down pat as well, understanding and expecting someone from the tribe of Judah to come and restore Jewish rule. In that sense, the the Jews had no technical problem with Jesus, as long as he was going to cooperate with the local Jews in one way or another and become their leader and king. If he wasn't, it was better he be put to death.

    So there seems to be lots of things that suggest different factions of the Jews were generally expecting a king/prince or messiah to arrive during these times, and were applying this to various individuals, likely, including Herod, the Great and even Jesus himself, with some wanting to make him king or considering him "King of the Jews."

    JCanon

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    "And concerning what Scripture says, 'In this year of jubilee you shall return, every one of you, to your property' (cf. Leviticus 25:13) ... The interpretation is that it applies to the Last Days and concerns the captives, just as [Isaiah said: 'To proclaim the jubilee to the captives' (cf. Isaiah 61:1) ... just as .... and from the inheritance of Melchizedek, who will return them to what is rightfully theirs. He will proclaim to them the jubilee, thereby releasing them from the debt of all their sins. He shall proclaim this decree in the first week of the jubilee period that follows nine jubilee periods. Then the 'Day of Atonement' shall follow after the tenth jubilee period, when he shall atone for all the Sons of Light and the people who are predestined to Melchizedek ... and by his might he will judge God's holy ones and so establish a righteous kingdom" (11QMelch 2:2-9).

    Above is an interesting quote for sure. It shows how in-depth some were with understanding certain aspects of the appearance of the messiah, especially with respect to prophetic patterns like this jubilee period. A jubilee period is 49 years, with the jubilee occurring in the first year, thus it becomes the 50th year after a jubilee period. Apparently the "Day of Atonement" follows a 490-year period and is associated with Melchizedek.

    Melchizedek is associated with the second coming in Christian tradition. Still it is fascinating that the Jews would celebrate a jubilee and be restored to their land during the last jubilee period, that is the 10th jubilee period of a 490-year period. 490 years is ten jubilees. Thus there is evidence here that even those from the 1st century thought that in the end times the Jews would be restored to their homeland during the tenth Jubilee.

    Please, note, therefore that this works out quite well when the "70 weeks" are fixed by Jesus' baptism in 29 CE, which marks the 70th week of the 490-year period. This 70-week period would thus be from 455 BCE to 36 CE. But if you count down to our times from 36 CE to determine the future jubilee periods, we find one ends in 1996. That is, 4 x 490 = 1960 years. 1960 plus 36 CE = 1996. Thus the closest 490-year period during our time is from 1506-1996 and the tenth jubilee, the jubilee period that was supposed to see the restoration of the Jews to their homeland would begin 49 years earlier, which is 1947, the very year indeed that the Jews did get restored to their homeland.

    Now what is even more fun, is an obvious "week" of jubilees seemed implied. That is, when each 490-year period of 70 weeks becomes one day in a seven-day week of 3430 years. If 1506-1996 is the 7th day of the week, then that week would begin in 1435 BCE. The Exodus occurs in 1386BCE, 49 years after the beginning of this week, but is appropriate as the very first "jubilee" when the Jews are released from bondage. But in that case, where you have seven days of 490 years each, there is a total of 70 jubilee periods, with the very last jubilee fulfilling the 70th jubilee. Thus 1947-1996 fulfills the "70th jubilee" for the Jews.

    On the JW level, the concept of these 70 jubilees was also apparent, only they figured there was an extra year inserted between 49-year periods, so their calculation was for a period of 3500 years, which is 70 x 50, and based upon dating they later abandoned and considered erroneous, came up with 1925 as the end of this jubilee period, which I supposed relates more to the "Day of Atonement" which follows the tenth jubilee of the 490-year period.

    Also quite interesting, is that Melchidek on the Day of Atonment would "atone the Sons of Light" after 1996. Per Christian doctrine, the natural Jews as "God's chosen people" would be cast out and "spiritual Israel" would then take their place. Thus the Day of Atonement would represent when the Jewish physical Covenant would become focussed on the spiritual temple being built by Christ in the form of the "144,000" (said only in general reference, since 144K represent the natural Jews within the kingdom, making up the "root" of 1/10th of the entire number, but only a technicality here; the actual entire kingdom number is 10 x 144K = 1,440,000).

    Still it is a testament to the understanding of scripture that after the tenth jubilee "Melchizedek" would convert the Covenant to a spiritual one and anointed the "sons of light" at that time into the spiritual priesthood, which is pretty much the case. The Covenant was to "remain in force" until the end of the 70th week, meaning up until 1996 only. After that, it was about Melchizedek, a non-Jew becoming the messiah and building spiritual Israel.

    Finally, someone mentioned a possible application of the concept of the Day of Atonement in relation to the year the Jews returned to Palestine after captivity in Babylon. Interesting that the return of the Jews in 537 BCE as far as a fulfillment of the "Day of Atonement" is shifted to a 49-year interpretation. That is the 50th year after 49 years of bondage from 587 BCE, the fall of Jerusalem. I see some very obvious problems with this application. For one, the day of Atonement was to occur in the 50th year after the initial "tenth" jubilee. If the Day of Atonement is thus to be fulfilled by the restoration of the Jews in the 1st of Cyrus, then it would have to follow 49 years of the Jews already returned as it would in the case of 1947 marking the jubilee of the Jew's final return and the Day of Atonement occurring 49 years later in 1996.

    On the other hand, 1996 does not simply end 49 years of the tenth jubilee, it is also the first year following 490 years. In that sense, the year the Jews returned if it were to fulfill the Day of Atonement, would be fuilfilled if the year the Jews returned was the first year of a new 490-year period. But this is precisely another reason for beginning the 490 years from 455 BCE to 36 CE with the return of the Jews in the 1st of Cyrus, which is the conclusion made popular in 1913 by Martin Anstey in his Romance of Bible Chronology. This meant, of course, an 82-year adjustment in the Persian timeline to do this.

    Also arguing against a 49-year fulfillment so that 537 BCE becomes the Day of Atonment For the Jews in relation to their period of bondage is the fact that the last 70 years of Jewish "servitude" per Jewish historical understanding via Josephus is that those last deported in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar are the ones who served the specific 70 years for Nebuchadnezzar and his sons. That means that the actual final bondage of the entire Jewish nation did not begin in relation to the destruction of Jerusalem which occurred 4 years earlier in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar. So 49 years prior to the return of the Jews from Babylon the entire nation of the Jews would have been in bondage already for 24 years. And mind you, this is not the Biblical interpretation here, but the common Jewish traditional historical history for what happened 70 years before their return:

    Antiquities of the Jews, 11.1.1 "

    IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus 1 which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon , God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity. And these things God did afford them; for he stirred up the mind of Cyrus , and made him write this throughout all Asia : "Thus saith Cyrus the king: Since God Almighty hath appointed me to be king of the habitable earth, I believe that he is that God which the nation of the Israelites worship; for indeed he foretold my name by the prophets, and that I should build him a house at Jerusalem , in the

    Of course, you can have the Day of Aontement fulfillment for the year the Jews return from Babylon if it follows a 490-year period, which it would when the 1st of Cyrus is correctly dated to 455 BCE, now confirmed by the VAT4956 astronomical text which includes the original dating for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar in 511 BCE. So there is no way a Day of Aontement concept would ever work involving the 50th year after 49 years per my interpretation, and that includes Jewish traditional interpretation as well that the Jews last deported served a full 70 years of "servitude." The idea that Jerusalem fell in 587 BCE is so completely outdated now it's a JOKE. Even so, it is interesting that some focus on the "tenth jubilee" still gets fulfilled by 1947-1996, since no one argues the ending of the 70 weeks in 36 CE, though they debate over what happened at the beginning of the 70 weeks in 455 BCE, either the 1st of Cyrus or the 20th of Artaxerxes (or the 10th of Artaxerxes per secular chronology).

    James Canaan

    http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/jcovwk1996G.GIF (Jewish Covenant Week Chart)

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The 490-year periodization scheme is not chronologically defined but is constructed through pre-defined units like sabbatical weeks and jubilees from the OT, irrespective of chronology per se. There was no standard "chronology" of the period at the time, as can be seen in Jewish chronographers like Demetrius or the different alternative reckonings of Josephus (compare later works like the Seder Olam or early Christian chronographers), and the 490-year scheme was widely used in apocalyptic texts with a variety of different starting events (compare the periodization of the Damascus Document, which starts the reckoning with Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Jerusalem), whereas priestly-oriented texts view history through events in the priesthood. Some apocalyptic uses of the periodizaion scheme accord rather closely with chronology (the Damascus Document and the hour-watch scheme of the Animal Apocalypse are pretty impressive), whereas others do not (such as the Apocalypse of Weeks, which is not interested in chronology at all, but only shows a loose affinity with the chronology of the period). I have earlier posted on the dynamic nature of Jewish chronography of the Hellenistic era, oriented as it is with ideological concerns of the Jewish people vis-a-vis the chronography of other nations like Egypt and Greece.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Regarding the specific chronology of any period of 70 weeks, once a 70-week period was linked to a FIXED DATE, such as the coming of the messiah at the end of 69 weeks, then that FIXES all successions of the 70 weeks.

    So indeed, various guesses or confusions over an "absolute" chronology may have not been well defined for all during these times, especially when you consider potential revisionism, which many scholars presume the Jews revised their history while others presume the pagans revised theirs, lending to the confusion. But after a 70-week period becomes fixed to a spcific event, then you don't have the choice to just move around the chronology any more. The beginning of a 70th week is dated to 29 CE. That means the 70-week jubilee period is also fixed in connection with 36 CE being the end of a 490-year period. So after 36 CE the jubilee week (7 days of 490 years each, a period of 70 jubilees) is FIXED. Note too, that 455 BCE absolutely begins that week, but as noted, there is more than one view as to exactly what occurred in 455 BCE. But there is no question about when it ends in 36 CE, 3-1/2 years after Jesus' death. That's why, calculating the modern-day 70th week is easy and skips past all the potential chronology issues from the NB and Persian Periods. 455 BCE and 1947 are directly linked and both fall on jubilee years. But 1947 becomes an especial jubilee because being the 10th jubilee of the 7th Day (3430 years, 7 x 490), it represents another fulfillment of the 70th week.

    http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/jcovwk1996G.GIF (Jewish Covenant Week Chart)

    So post 36 CE we can fix the jubillee cycle for ourselves with no problems.

    But as far as the Jews being confused over the "absolute" chronology, the VAT4956 itself suggests the Jews never lost track of the "absolute" chronology. That is, the fact that the VAT4956 links to the rule of Nebuchadnezzar, a rulership clearly well-delineated in Biblical records suggests that Jewish astronomers were behind the creation of this text and the clever insertion of the 511 BCE references from the original chronology. The suggestion that Jews were astronomers and scientists is suggested by the Magi who came from the East after seeing a star, etc. at the time Christ was born. Further, the Jews were always (as now) seemingly on the cutting edge of the intellectual community. But having noted that, even though the Jews did what was politically correct because they liked the Persians and particular Artaxerxes who was also Xerxes, it doesn't mean the "absolute chronology" was lost. It just means it was suppressed.

    Case in point is the later publishing of the "Rabinnical timeline" where the Jews are allegedly seriously dating year 6 of Darius I, the year the temple is completed to 352 BCE. This is only a few years before the end of the Persian Empire in 333 BCE! No way! Even so, there is suspicion that 352 BCE is really a cryptic reference connected to the original chronology. How so? Because from the 1st of Cyrus to the completion of the temple in the 6th year of Darius, there is an 82-year discrepancy between the Bible's chronology which dates the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE and the secular dating which dates that event in 537 BCE. Likewise, the year the temple is completed would be 434 BCE per the Bible and 416 BCE per secular chronology, again, an 82-year different. 352 BCE, however, is exactly 82 years after 434 BCE.

    So it would appear, that some Jewish rabbis are having their cake and eating it too, on the one hand, basically thumbing their nose up at the gentiles (Christians) for their incorrect chronology, but without revealing what the true original chronology really is. At the the same time, they can publish the rabbinical timeline without problem, which secretly references the original chronology, because the dates are so ridiculous they are not taken seriously. So it is not possible to now absolutely claim that the Jews lost track of the original chronology. Apparently they didn't. But it remained their secret as much as the Persians.

    Note further, that the Jews themselves may have help to mastermind the revisions. They certainly were cooperative. Case in point "Esdras". Esdras, originally one book makes up Ezra/Nehemiah. They re-wrote a substitute version of "Esdras" in which they remove the history of Nehemiah from the reign of Artaxerxes. That was their academic and historical solution for a book that would otherwise have shown Nehemiah returning at about age 30 with Zerubbabel in the 1st of Cyrus and living down into the reign of Darius II, which with the revised chronology would require Nehemiah to live over 143 years of age. So the revised "Esdras" simply describes Ezra and Nehemiah in relation to what they did when they first returned from Babylon and leave off what happened later with Artaxerxes. So the Jewish records clearly reflect they understand that Nehemiah returned in the 1st of Cyrus with Zerubbabel. But what happened later, when the canonical Ezra/Nehemiah came back into circulation, was that now the apocryphal "Esdras" is showing Nehemiah as returning with Zerubbabel. Few Christians bother to check this out, but deal with the problem by simply claiming as JWs do that the Nehemiah prince mentioned returning with Zerubbabel was a different Nehemiah than the one who served under Artaxerxes. Of course, it doesn't take much comparison to see that's not the case.

    At any rate, there are indicators that the Jews knew about the revisions and did know about the original timeline and chronology. For instance, Josephus himself gives the reign of Evil-Merodach in "Antiquities" as 18 years, rather than just 2 years. Interesting, since that is precisely how long his rule would need to be by deduction. That is, the Bible's chronology is 26 years longer for the NB Period than secular history. It establishes a 45-year rule for Nebuchadnezzar and a 6-year rule for Darius the Mede specifically. That makes up 8 out of the 26 years, leaving an adjustment of 18 more years. Since Cyrus began ruling in Persia in the 6th year of Nabonidus and became king in Babylon 20 years later, we can calculate the number of years Nabonidus ruled by subtracting the 6-year rule of Darius the Mede for the entire period. That is the period of 20 years for the rule of Cyrus beginning the sixth year of Nabonidus means that we are looking at a total period of 25 years from the 1st of Nabonidus until when Cyrus became king at Babylon. We know Darius the Mede rule 6 of those years, so we substract 6 from 25, which gives us 19. Secular history reduced this by 2 years making his rule 17 years. But that just leaves 16 years to adjust during the reign of Niglassar and Evil-Merodach. Niglassar ruled for 4 years. If we do not adjust his rule, then the 2-year rule of Evil-Merodach would need to be extended by 16 years, in which case, as Josephus mentions, he ruled for 18 years before the changes.

    So JOSEPHUS knew the specific "relative" chronology, with some rabbinical writings suggesting the absolute chronology was never lost either, simply suppressed. Fortunately, the VAT4956 double-dating leaves absolutely no doubt what the original dates for the rule of Nebuchadnezzar was as far as an absolute date and from there we can reconstruct the entire original timeline.

    Generally speaking, therefore, if an author is Jewish, I presume a "conflict of interest" for them, since their own records and traditional history has always contradicted secular history. In fact, the first thing a representative of the Britsh Museum asked me when I presented the "misrepresentation" of Abraham Sachs in Line 18 of the VAT4956 was whether or not I was aware of the Jewish concept that the Persian Period was much shorter? So everybody is aware that the Jews contradict, at least superficially, the current timeline and claim the Persian Period is way too long. Problem is, they exaggerate how short it is to the point nobody even takes them seriously. But maybe that's the way they prefer it. They may not want to give away the true timeline, after all, it would tend to point to 29 CE as the year the "messiah" should arrive, and that tends to validate Jesus Christ as the messiah.

    But even if the Jews did generally lose track of the true timeline in later ages, we know for a fact it was known during the Seleucid Period since the VAT4956 confirms this.

    Finally, another huge giveaway that the Jews and Josephus clearly knew about the original chronology is their avoidance of the secular references to when the Exodus occurs. Manetho points to the Exodus occurring at the end of the reign of Amenhotep III. That is absolutely correct. Josephus, though, argues against this, while by doing so, documents the secular reference for when the Exodus occurs. So even now in the academic world, even though Manetho tells us who the pharaoh was when the Exodus occurs, the academic world pretends it's a big mystery. Fact is, though, once you link the Exodus to the end of the rule of Amenhotep III, it throws a big wrench into the revised dating. You see if the Exodus happens near the end of Amenhotep III's rule, it means Solomon gets dated much later than he is currently being date, that dating being based upon the revised NB and Persian dates. If you expose the date of the Exodus, you establish a new timeline based upon that per the Bible because all the years are accounted for from the Exodus down to the return from Babylon.

    In other words, if you date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE as a jubilee year that begins a 490-year period, then the Exodus occurs 19 jubilees earlier, 931 years earlier, in 1386 BCE. In that case the rule of Solomon is from 910-870 BCE rather than 970-930 BCE. But we now have RC14 dating from Rehov that points to Shishak's invasion occurring c. 871 BCE, which would fall in the 39th year of Solomon, giving us the same dating of 910-870 BCE. This contradicts the date of 925 BCE, based upon the revised NB Chronology as being scientifically challenged.

    http://www.geocities.com/ed_maruyama/rehov872.html

    So you see, if you're going to cover up for the revised NB Period, you have to fake not knowing which pharaoh died in the Red Sea as well. All the chronology is connected. So Josephus was quite aware of this, knew the absolute correct chronology, but had to play the politically correct historical game or his works would not continue to be published.

    At any rate, Jews are presumed by certain researchers to know or believe what the original chronology is per their own history but considered to have a significant conflict of interest in coming forward with anything not politically correct and in line with the revised secular history. So we extend them that courtesy and just present the alternative argument in a WHAT IF? kind of way.

    JCanon

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