The Bible - God's Word or Man's? - What Convinces You?

by sweet pea 64 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • dawg
    dawg

    Bro Apostate... I like reading your post even though I am dimetrically opposed to what your saying... It amazes me although, when I read where you must pray to God for spirit so you'll be lead to believe the bible's nonscense.

    ANd what did the snake promise man? Knowlwdge, and what do men like you continue to tell believers, Don't have knowledge just have faith. Nah, I'll take the snake's word for it and believe that having knowlede is God like... for isn't it the snake that says "your eyes will be opened, and you'll be like God knowing good from bad"? THank you Mr.Snake for giving me the knowledge to be like God... and what are God's followers like? WHy, they're just like Adam and Eve, afraid of their nakedness, always ashamed of their sins and the like. ALways running in fear of God...

    This shame based religion that takes away man's ability to use their logic, it's not good for society, and look at the results of not being like God and knowing "good from bad". Look at what religion has done with the "just believe" theme.... nice! I'll hang with the snakes anyday.

  • White Dove
    White Dove

    Good Gawd...er...I mean Dawg! I'll hang out with you and the snakes cuz the snake makes sense. (Say that really fast 3x's!)

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    You people are heading into dangerous territory.

    You're almost advocating...

  • darkuncle29
    darkuncle29

    I'll take it with a 50 LB bag of salt, thank you. For me, what proves it is from man? The bible itself.

    An interesting read, The Age of Reason by Thomas Payne one of the founding fathers of the U.S., picks things apart pretty well.

  • Shawn10538
    Shawn10538

    The only way a person can believe in the Bible is if they ASSUME it is true from the beginning of their study of it. Then, the believer tries to manipulate the meaning of the Bible so that it always comes out being true. All information to the contrary is explained away and rationalized. This is true for 100% of all Bible believers.

    What proved the bible was false for me was actually reading it. If you start at Gen. 1:1 without any assumptions of truth, from a place of skepticism and disbelief and demand that the Bible prove itself true BEFORE you will believe a single word of it, you will not end up your study believing in the Bible. Believers will inevitably claim that one has to know the originl languages to really get the meaning of the Bible, the Bible therefore, even for believers can not stand on its own merits. One needs to be a scholar of ancient history and original languages to understand it according to them. this is an admission that the Bible can not stand on its own.

    Also, the Bible believer wil inevitably BEG THE QUESTION. The believer will eventually throw their hands up in frustration and say, "Well, you just have to have faith." OK, so who is it that is telling you that one must have faith FIRST before one can believe in the Bible? The believer will say, "The Bible." They will see no contradiction in this reasoning. In fact it will prove to them the Bible's trueness. any educated person will notice that to say that one believes in the Bible because of what the Bible says is BEGGING THE QUESTION, and is therefore proven false. That is why I call faith the coward's retreat.

  • White Dove
    White Dove

    Shawn,

    Right on the $! I'm taking critical thinking in college this term and that is exactly what we are covering: God must be real. How do you know? The Bible says so. Who wrote the Bible? God. How do you know? The Bible says so............................................................................ad nauseum......around and around in circles................

    Some of the Bible says really good things like be good to others. But so does your gut. My god/ess is my gut.

  • Vinny
    Vinny

    I willingly walked away from the Watchtower Society after a thorough examination of the facts. And I would have no problems walking away from the bible if I concluded that it was nothing more than just some "good book" by men.

    In fact, in many ways it would probably be easier to do just that. Here though are a few of the reasons why this has not happened for me as well as to millions of others today: The bible, in my opinion, is a reliable source of information though it was written thousands of years ago. Unlike the Watchtower Society's thousands of mistaken views within just the last 100 years. Just go here: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm Thye bible CLAIMS to be authored by God. There is an abundance of evidence IMO that it could be authored by God. Though I am not 100 percent certain, here is a very short list of reasons why I believe the bible is likely inspired of God and thus a reliable, trustworthy source of information today. For one, the idea that all four of gospel writers just made up these accounts about Jesus Christ is not something I quickly buy into. The way they claim to have changed their lives, leaving many significant occupations and other personal things behind, leads me to believe they sure found SOMETHING powerfully persuasive in this person called Jesus Christ. THE BIBLE WRITERS ALSO ADMIT MAKING MISTAKES, and write about these mistakes which only adds to their credibility from my perspective. Likewise the bible writer Paul; he certainly had something dramatic happen to him. He claims to have had a vision of Christ himself, became blind, went to Ananias as instructed and received his sight back three days later. Then completely changed his direction from a persecutor of Christians to becoming a fully involved member, one of the foremost of the apostles actually, spearheading the preaching of Christ to the Gentiles. The apostles did not even trust or believe him initially, which again, in my view, only adds to the believability here. Is this bible writer, Paul of Tarsus, just another fabrication then? If Paul did exist, did he simply lie about his experience of having this vision of Christ, going blind, being healed etc so that he could then become a Christian, be thrown in prison many times, be shipwrecked many times, beaten many times, starved and die due to his faith and the declaration of that faith? He had it pretty good before becoming a Christian. So then, what moved him to change and suffer on numerous occasions because of his new faith? His account has a definite ring of believability to me. I guess is is somewhat possible that all of these bible writers could have just made all of these things up. That is possible, I guess. BUT IT IS ALSO POSSIBLE THEY HAPPENED JUST AS THEY WERE WRITTEN. And if true, then we have some very interesting events taking place that would support Jesus' claim to be God's son, representing God himself. And if so, then what he says about God, about the earth, the future, eternal life... can be and should be seriously considered. I would consider such a source as very reliable. Very trustworthy, (((IF))) these written accounts about him are true. FOR ME, ANOTHER HUGE PROBLEM WITH ABANDONING THE BIBLE IS BECAUSE OF FULFILLED PROPHECY! The many prophecies written that had exact fulfillments adds ever more POWERFUL weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. For example: Here is just a portion fulfilled prophecies in Jesus Christ. There are hundreds of others Prophecies fulfilled as well. Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled: 1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4 2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25 3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1 4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34 5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34 6. Seed of David Jer 23:5 Lk 3:31 7. Tribe of Judah Gen 49:10 Rev 5:5 8. Family line of Jesse Isa 11:1 Lk 3:32 9. Born in Bethlehem Mic 5:2 Mt 2:1-6 10. Herod kills the children Jer 31:15 Mt 2:16-18 Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled 11. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20 12. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36 13. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23 14. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25 15. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6 16. Judge Isa 33:22 Jn 5:22-23 17. King Ps 2:6 Jn 18:33-37 18. Anointed by the Spirit Isa 11:2 Mt 3:16-17 19. His zeal for God Ps 69:9 Jn 2:15-17 Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled: 20. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3 21. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17 22. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4 23. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35 24. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12 25. Enter Jerusalem on donkey Zech 9:9 Mt 21:1-7 26. Stone of stumbling to Jews Isa 28:16; Ps 118:22 1 Pet 2:6-8 27. Light to Gentiles Isa 49:6 Acts 13:46-48 The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled: 28. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27 29. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15 30. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5 31. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10 32. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50 33. Accused by false witnesses Ps 35:11+20-21 Mt 26:59-61 34. Silent before accusers Isa 53:7 Mt 27:12-14 35. Wounded and bruised Isa 53:4-6 1 Pet 2:21-25 36. Beaten and spit upon Isa 50:6 Mt 26:67-68 37. Mocked Ps 22:6-8 Mt 27:27-31 38. Fell under the cross Ps 109:24-25 Jn 19:17; Lk23:26 39. Hands and feet pierced Ps 22:16 Jn 20:24-28 40. Crucified with thieves Isa 53:12 Mt 27:38 41. Prayed for enemies Isa 53:12 Lk 23:34 42. Rejected by His own people Isa 53:3 Jn 19:14-15 43. Hated without cause Ps 69:4 Jn 15:25 44. Friends stood aloof Ps 38:11 Lk22:54;23:49 45. People wag their heads Ps 22:7;109:25 Mt 27:39 46. People stared at Him Ps 22:17 Lk 23:35 47. Cloths divided and gambled for Ps 22:18 Jn 19:23-24 48. Became very thirsty Ps 22:15 Jn 19:28 49. Gall and vinegar offered Him Ps 69:21 Mt 27:34 50. His forsaken cry Ps 22:1 Mt 27:46 51. Committed Himself to God Ps 31:5 Lk 23:46 52. Bones not broken Ps 34:20 Jn 19:32-36 53. Heart broken Ps 69:20;22:14 Jn 19:34 54. His side pierced Zech 12:10 Jn 19:34+37 55. Darkness over the land Amos 8:9 Lk 23:44-45 56. Buried in rich man's tomb Isa 53:9 Mt 27:57-60 His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled: 57. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31 58. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35 59. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10 60. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13 I always appreciated, for example, the one in Micah 5:2 that reveals that Bethlehem would be the birthplace of the Messiah. For Christians, the prophecy is very powerful in a very simple way. It eliminates all other cities and towns throughout the world as a place in which the Messiah could be born. It narrows the possibilities to one tiny village just south of Jerusalem. And throughout the span of the past 27 centuries, from the days of the prophet Micah up through the present time, Bethlehem is credited as being the birthplace for only one person who is widely known throughout the world. And that person is Jesus Christ. The New Testament books of Matthew and Luke list Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus. Matthew 2:1-6 describes the birth of Jesus as the fulfillment of Micah's prophecy. And like I stated, there are hundreds of other prophecies fulfilled in very specific detail which adds significant weight to the bible being more than just some old book. The bible's statement that the earth is round, and that it hangs upon nothing, though men at that time believed the earth was flat, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than men. Are all of these just mere coincidences? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than mere men; men who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty, as we well know. There are not only a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment. There is secular testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events. The calendar we use today is based on the very year he was born. Just a coincidence? A person that really did not exist at all, or whose accomplishments were greatly exaggerated? Possible, I guess. But possibly not. The scriptures contain numerous accounts of MIRACLES where people were brought back to life, sick and dying were healed, people were miraculously fed whether from food falling out of the sky or a few fishes feeding thousands, olive oil and bread jars that never ran out and other examples. Sea's were parted, were walked on and calmed down upon commands. You do not hear stories like this today, with numerous eye-witnesses to collaborate. This collection of books is available in over 2000 languages today. It the worlds best selling book of all time today. The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life. Jesus sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 is still considered by many to be the greatest speech ever given. Priceless gems for many. Is it possible then that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. If so, if it is from God himself, then the very question as to how life arrived is answered. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these things that we see today. No soup-like conditions that somehow evolved into the beautiful yet complex systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it also says there are new scrolls to be opened. It talks about everlasting life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and permanently. That is a beautiful hope if true. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true, then the human race has much to look forward to. For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is, for me, as well as billions of people today "believable." HERE IS SOME SECULAR TESTIMONY THAT JESUS WAS REAL: http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm What Josephus Tells Us What is the significance of Josephus' references to Jesus? Josephus provides valuable, independent confirmation of the existence, life, and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth. Leading scholar Luke T. Johnson offers the following opinion: Stripped of its obvious Christian accretions, the passage tells us a number of important things about Jesus, from the perspective of a first-century Jewish historian . . . . Jesus was both a teacher and a wonder-worker, that he got into trouble with some of the leaders of the Jews, that he was executed under the prefect Pontius Pilate, and that his followers continued to exist at the time of Josephus' writing. (Luke T. Johnson, The Real Jesus, pages 113-14). F.F. Bruce breaks it down thus: We have therefore very good reason for believing that Josephus did make reference to Jesus, bearing witness to (a) His date, (b) His reputation as a wonder-worker, (c) His being the brother of James, (d) His crucifixion under Pilate at the information of Jewish rulers, (e) His messianic claim, (f) His being the founder of the tribe of Christians, and probably, (g) the belief in His rising from the dead. (F.F. Bruce, op. cit., page 112). From: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/mq12.html Jewish authors recognize the miraculous character of some of Jesus' works. 1. Josephus. Josephus is the earliest witness we have to the miracle-working of Jesus. From Van Voorst: "The reconstructed neutral Testimonium also provides evidence about the ministry of Jesus. Josephus calls Jesus 'a wise man.' Note that this characterization is directly linked first to Jesus' miracles, then to his teachings. "He was a worker of amazing deeds" is an explicit characterization of Jesus' ministry as a miracle-worker, with stress on the effect those deeds had on others ("amazing"). Again, there is no detail; what kind of miracles Jesus worked, Josephus does not say. " 2. The other, very early non-Biblical Jewish traditions about Jesus can be found in pre-Rabbinic Jewish tradition in Justin Martyr , in the form of accusations of sorcery and magic. These traditions can arguably be traced back to the very controversies of Jesus day: 4. Celsus seems to believe that Jesus did miracles, but consistently ascribes those to magical powers. 5. Porphyry seems to not make an explicit statement in this area, but similarly argues that (a) the disciples fabricated stories; yet (b) Jesus was semi-divine as was the miracle-working Pythagoras. This would imply an acceptance of His miracles (since Porphyry seemed to believe in Pythagoras' miracles). See Wilken's chapter on this in [CRST]. 6. Hierocles wrote a piece on Apollonius and made several references to Jesus' miracles: 7. The emperor Julian (the Apostate) accepted the reality of (some of) the miracles, but downplayed the significance of them: Interestingly enough he does not deny the reality of the miracles…Julian does not question the reality of the miracles, but asserts that they were ineffective in changing his audience…Julian's statement about the 'Miracle working and fabrication of the gospels' indicates that he could question the veracity of the gospel narratives, but in general he does not seem to question the belief that Jesus performed miracles. In summary: Josephus affirms that Jesus worked miracles. Early hostile Jewish tradition--in Justin and the Rabbinics--manifest the memory that Jesus did works of a miraculous nature. The hostile Graeco-Roman writers [Celsus, Porphyry, Hierocles, Julian] accept that some of Jesus' miraculous works actually occurred. There are two strands of independent, extra-biblical tradition that support the historicity of one specific NT miracle: The Feeding of the 5000. The general trends and patterns in post-Jesus G-R literature and popular belief are easily explained (and perhaps 'best explained' or 'only explained') by the widespread acceptance by the Roman Empire that a real human in recent history (Jesus) had actually performed credible, 'sane', and non-bizarre miracles. There ARE indications from extra-biblical sources which suggest that (some of) the miracle stories reflect actual historical events. Additionally: Even those who rejected Him acknowledged that He had unusual powers. Rather than deny Jesus' miracles, His enemies accounted for them by saying that He did them with the aid of the devil (Matt. 12:24). Many books outside of the bible (Quran, Hippocrates, Apocrypha books etc.) have detailed descriptions of Jesus as well. FRom:http://www.sowhataboutjesus.com/existed.php Cornelius Tacitus: Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record. Lucian of Samosata: Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus. Suetoniu: Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ]. Pliny the Younger: Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god. Thallus and Phlegon: Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died. Mara Bar-Serapion: Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus. Josephus: Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead! The four Gospels: The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events. Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD. 50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period, but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the earlier Gospels. Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally. Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously. And because some JWD posters may disagree with the manner God chose to handle issues between the Israelites and the other national groups, does not in any manner prove that these accounts are not inspired or not true. To many the bible is nothing more than old book and nothing more. And I can respect those wishing to believe that. But to myself and many, many others today, it is much more than this. There are genuine answers and a real positive hope for those that do believe what it contains. There are powerfully persuasive reasons then TOO BELIEVE that it is far more than the mere fabrications of men! Like I said in the beginning of this post; In some ways it would actually be easier to just discard the bible altogether. But through my own examinations, I have found that to be nearly impossible. Agree or disagree with me, it really does not matter. At least for those that want to know JUST WHY MANY BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE BEING MORE THAN JUST SOME OLD BOOK, you should at least have an idea now. All the best, Vinny
  • White Dove
    White Dove

    All things are possible, but not all things are probable. It's always good to be open to possibilities. Good points.

  • sweet pea
    sweet pea

    Everyone - you are fantastic!

    So far it seems that those who believe the bible is by man alone have good arguments to back up that belief and those that believe it has more to do with God seem to base that belief on 'feelings'.

    Dawg - any actual scientific evidence for your statement that Adam, Eve and Noah are all myths? I'm leaning towards this view but it would be helpful to have some concrete evidence that proves they couldn't have existed.

    Anti-Christ - great link to RunningMan's essay on 'Numbers' - I never considered the mathematics before - very convincing argument.

    Marmot - cheers for the tip to explore Genesis....

    Nvr - for me the fact that the Bible inspires people to think that shunning's a good thing when all authorities who know what they're talking about decry it as permanently damaging psychological torture makes me wonder why the hell a loving God would allow someone to write down words that would justify people practicing it and feeling self-righteous for it!

    Awakened - totally with you on the "what if I'd been born in another part of the world" scenario.

    Catbert/Shopaholic - I'm beginning to feel like I've pushed the reset button....

    Maddie - Surely, one's heart can't ignore all evidence that is presented if the evidence stands - weren't we guilty of doing this with the organisation at one time; now's the time to consider what really is the truth even if it feels uncomfortable?

    Sad Emo - If some parts were 'God-breathed' because they contain wisdom, then any book that contains wisdom must be too? How do you account for secular wisdom that is not God-breathed? or Holy writings from the far east for example, are they not God-breathed too? which God?

    Brother Apostate - how does Holy Spirit account for all the evidence that points to the gross failings as highlighted by RunningMan/marmot, etc? Surely one is no different from a JW sticking their head in the sand if one says that 'Faith' is the answer to everything.

    White Dove - I'm beginning to think this way myself.

    Thanks again everyone for your thoughts, keep em coming!

  • sweet pea
    sweet pea

    Vinny - "your short list?" I'd hate to see your long list! :-) Seriously, thanks for the effort involved in that post, some very good points to consider, and I will. I genuinely would still like to believe in the Bible in its entirety but I'm struggling with some of it right now and I have to get to the bottom of it. Faith is not good enough for me on this one, I've assumed too much for too long.

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