The Bible - God's Word or Man's? - What Convinces You?

by sweet pea 64 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo
    Do we have to choose? Perhaps not. Perhaps - if God exists, sincerity on a personal level is the most important part. That thought should perhaps stand there alone, as it is rather 'beautiful' - but I can't help but add: Many bad acts have been done in the name of religious sincerity.

    (brief interlude to turn off the most pukeworthy load of crap I ever heard on a radio Evensong service lol!)

    Having suitably replaced the aforementioned with Paulo Nutini I'm back!

    I'm with your first suggestion - I don't think we do have to choose and it's about the personal level. This reminds me of the end of John's gospel where Peter asks Jesus what will happen to John and Jesus replied basically "That's not your concern, YOU follow me" (some God-breathing going on here!)

    And yes, although many have followed their own pursuits under the banner of their religion, sometimes believers have just been sincerely wrong

  • marmot
    marmot

    My own conclusions about the bible as a man-made book were reached over a long period of study and reflection.

    I read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins but that didn't convince me at the time.

    The tipping point for me came when I did a thorough study of Genesis and I couldn't reconcile the idea that mankind is only 6000 years old. There is simply too much evidence from multiple cross-verifiable sources to the contrary. There are some apologist who have concocted very complicated explanations for this but they seem to be grasping at straws.

    I fully admit that it is scary to think that there is no god and that your life is the only one you're going to get, and I even found myself wanting to pray, but that fear eventually goes away. I honestly think there's something physiological about it, even Buddhist have a term for the potentially terrifying moment when meditation makes the mind blank.

    The point is that fear is transient. I now feel at peace.

  • Grammy
    Grammy

    I think you are right Dawg...

    Excerpt from the Nicene creed.....

    We believe in one God,
    the Father almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    begotten from the Father before all ages,
    God from God,
    Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made;
    of the same essence as the Father. Through him all things were made.

    I believe they definitely had an agenda!

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    And Grammy,

    Starting in Nicea in 325, until many years later, their agenda was to prove that the Christ was God, not a god but God himself. The Gopsel according to Thomas doesn't indicate that, nor the Gospel of Mary... both left out of the NT... WHy? Agenda maybe?

    This guy, extolled by Catholics, was a butcher.

    Theodosius I

    Roman Emperor (also known as Flavius Theodosius), born in Spain, about 346; died at Milan, 17 January, 395. Theodosius is one of the sovereigns by universal consent called Great. He stamped out the last vestiges of paganism, put an end to the Arian heresy in the empire, pacified the Goths, left a famous example of penitence for a crime, and reigned as a just and mighty Catholic emperor. His father, the Comes Theodosius, was a distinguished general; both he and the mother Thermantia were Catholics at a time when Arianism was at its strongest. Theodosius the son distinguished himself in the army, was made Dux of Moesia, defeated the Sarmatians (Ammianus Marcellinus, XXIX, 6); then, when an intrigue brought about the disgrace and execution of his father (376) he retired to his own property in Spain. But his reputation was not forgotten. The Emperor Gratian (375-383) after the death of Valens (378) took Theodosius from private life and made him his fellow-emperor (Augustus) for the East (19 Jan., 379). He was already married to Aelia Flacilla, by whom he had two sons, Arcadius and Honorius (his future successors) and a daughter Pulcheria. As Augustus he carried on the Gothic war vigorously and successfully. During the year 380 he was able to conclude a victorious peace with the Goths; on 24 November he held his triumph at Constantinople. Meanwhile he had also repressed the Vandals and Huns. Early in the same year a severe sickness at Thessalonica made him seek baptism, and he was baptized by the CatholicBishop of Thessalonica, Ascholios. Socrates (H. E., V, 6) says that since Theodosius "was a Christian from his parents and professed the faith of the Homoousios" he first assured himself that the bishop was not an Arian (cf. Sozomen; "H. E.", VII, 4). A great part of the emperor's activity was now spent in establishing the Catholicfaith and repressing Arianism. In February, 380, he and Gratian published the famous edict that all their subjects should profess the faith of the Bishops of Rome and Alexandria (Cod. Theod., XVI, I, 2; Sozomen, VII, 4). The conventicles of the heretics were not to be called churches.

    As soon as he came to Constantinople Theodosius began expelling the Arians, who had hitherto been in possession. The Aryan bishop, Demophilus, left the city (Socr., V, 7; Soz., VII, 5), St. Gregory of Nazianzus undertook the administration of the diocese. In January, 381, the prefect had orders to close all Arianchapels in the city and to expel those who served them. The same severe measures were ordered throughout Theodosius's dominion, not only against Arians, but also in the case of Manichæans and all other heretics. However Sozomen says that the emperor "made severe punishment by his laws but did not carry them out, for he did not wish to punish, but only to frighten his subjects, that they might think as he did about Divine things, And he praised those who were converted of their own accord" (H. E., VII, 12). In 381 the Second General Council was held at Constantinople under his auspices (Socr., V, 8; Soz., VII, 7). In 383 he attempted a conference at his capital between Catholics and Arians, with a view to reconciliation; but no result was obtained (Socr., V, 10; Soz., VII, 12). In the same year Gratian was murdered at Lyons (25 Aug.) and Clemens Maximus usurped the imperial title in the West (383-388). Theodosius acknowledged the usurper on condition that he would allow Gratian's brother, Valentinian II, to reign in Italy. In 387 Maximus broke the contract and expelled Valentinian, who fled to Theodosius. Theodosius brought him back with an army, and defeated and executed Maximus at Aquileia. Valentinian II now reigned in the West until 392. It was also in 387 that Theodosius showed such tolerance in the affair of the statues at Antioch (see JOHN CHRYSOSTOM).

    During all his reign Theodosius took severe measures against the surviving remnants of paganism. In 388 a prefect was sent around Egypt, Syria, and Asia Minor for the purpose of destroying temples and breaking up pagan associations; it was then that the Serapeum at Alexandria was destroyed (Socr., V, 16). Libanius wrote a "Lamentation" about the destruction of the fanes of the gods (peri ton leron, ed. R. Foerster, Bibl. Script. Gr. et Rom. Teubner). In 391 Theodosius refused to allow the Altar of Victory to be restored in the Roman Senate (cf. Gibbon, "Decline and Fall", xxviii). Pagansacrifices, omens, and witchcraft were to be punished as loesa majestas (Cod. Theod., XVI, X, 10-12). In short his laws put an end finally to the old cult, at any rate as far as open and public use is concerned. One of its last acts was a despairingappeal to the sword, which offers again the dramatic situation of a field of battle on which the religion of Europe seemed to depend. Argobast, the Frankish tutor of Valentinian II, at least indirectly caused his ward's death (Hodgkin, "Italy and Her Invaders", I, 590) and set up a rhetorician, Eugenius, in his stead (15 May, 392). Theodosius hastened to Italy to avenge this crime. Eugenius, although nominally a Christian, tried to unite the remains of paganism in his defence. He set up paganaltars again (including that of Victory at Rome), his soldiers marched under the standard of Hercules invictus. But near Aquileia on 6 Sept., 394, once more the Christian Labarum triumphed over the banner of the ancient gods; Theodosius entered Rome sole master of the now finally Christian empire. Further laws enforced the keeping of Sunday and the disabilities of pagans, Jews, and heretics. During the greater part of his reign Theodosius was in intimate relation with St. Ambrose. The story of the emperor's worst crime, the massacre of at least 7000 citizens of Thessalonica in revenge for a tumult (April, 390); of St. Ambrose's refusal to allow him to enter the Church; of his acceptance of eight months of penance, is one of the memorable incidents of Church history.

    Theodosius married Galla (daughter of Valentinian I) after the death of his first wife, and by her had a daughter, Galla Placidia, the mother of Valentinian III. St. Ambrose preached his funeral oration ("De obitu Theodosii", P. L., XVI, 1385). His two sons Arcadius and Honorius had already been proclaimed Augustus during his life. Arcadius became emperor of the eastern half of the empire, Honorius of the western. The Roman world was never again united. Theodosius stands out as the destroyer of heresy and paganism, as the last sovereign of the undivided empire. A coin representing him holding the Labarum with the inscription, Restitutor Reipublicae, expresses perfectly his title to remembrance.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14577d.htm

  • R.Crusoe
    R.Crusoe

    There is some yummy info here and I will return when I am hungry enough and have time enough for a large meal of logic. When I read books I am usually ultra critical before I accept it as fact. Even when phrased ambiguously I will be disappointed with it. I wonder to myself why I have spent my whole life refusing to question that The Bible is true or ambiguous even when it makes no sense whatsoever. It is because I was told what to do as an infant. It is because I was told as an infant to feel worried in my heart that God thinks I am a failure if I do not agree. I am asking myself on what basis I overlook pages of contradiction and why God would expect it of me. This is why!

  • catbert
    catbert

    I wish I had a reset button on the back of my head that would clear out all the programmed superstitions from my childhood.

  • shopaholic
    shopaholic
    I wish I had a reset button on the back of my head

    If you find out where to get one, let me know! But seriously Awakened007 made a great point, I am starting to be convinced that religion is partly cultural and geographic. There are other religions that base their beliefs in their "holy" writings and will die (right now if asked) for their god(s) and beliefs. You're more like to find more of these religions outside of North America. I'm coming to the conclusion that the bible is like any other book, you take what you want from it and leave the rest on the table. Wait, isn't that the same thing religions including the JWs already do?

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk
    I wish I had a reset button on the back of my head that would clear out all the programmed superstitions from my childhood.

    Knowledge is the "reset button".

  • kerj2leev
    kerj2leev

    Because the alternative is overwhelmingly frightening?

    Or liberating!

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk
    Or liberating!

    That part comes later.

    For some, two minutes later.

    For others, it might take years.

    I take it you were a "two minute" guy?

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