Logic and the fallacy of 1914

by neverendingjourney 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • beginnersmind
    beginnersmind

    With the fear of incurring your wrath I agree with Farkel's first post about "not being able to prove 2+z-1+10=13". As you can prove z in that equation it renders it useless in trying to use that specific equation in the illustration imho. However the general mathmatical equation you used u+v+w+x+y+z=1914 to illustrate the absurdity of reaching 1914 I wholeheartedly agree with.

    You said, "are you content with making your point by attacking the form of my argument instead of its substance?" Obviously this wasnt to me but theres no need to be so defensive. Even though I disagree with a small part of your post I still think you make a very good point. Its all good.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    "2+z-1+10=13"

    This representation is correct, except the clarification must be made that "13" is what you are trying to solve for.

    That's where the confusion is coming from. The point was that "13" is not known yet!

    So in reality, this is what he was trying to say:

    2+z-1+10=??

    THIS equation is impossible to solve.

    The WTS does what Farkel did and plugs in the "answer", "1914", and then uses it to go back and determine the unknown variables, such as 607 BCE...

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    BTW, no offense intended, Farkel!

    Neverendingjourney, Farkel can cut through WTS BS with wit & humor like no one else. I've bookmarked a ton of his stuff. Don't be put off by the "abrasiveness". That's just Farkel.

  • deaconbluez
    deaconbluez
    "2+z-1+10=13"

    This representation is correct, except the clarification must be made that "13" is what you are trying to solve for.

    That's where the confusion is coming from. The point was that "13" is not known yet!

    That's what he was implying. The Watchtower puts their 1914 conclusion out there first, and then tries to make these non-existent elements prove what is not there.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    "I wonder if they say that the dream had a secondary fulfillment, or if they say that what happened to Neb was in itself the prophecy.

    If the latter, they have difficulty in proving that Neb's experience took place during seven 360-day "prophetic" years."


    The WTS claims a 2nd fulfillment. But they also say that Neb's 7 year time period and the "times of the gentiles" are totally equivalent in structure. They claim the only difference was that the Gentile Times were 2520 YEARS rather than 2520 DAYS. The problem with this is if Neb's madness lasted 2520 days, this would have been over a month shy of 7 actual years!

    The WTS didn't account for the solar calendar in use by the author of Daniel, in which "360 days" actually represents a year of 360 days + 4 days for the equinoxes and solstices! Plus, every 7 years an extra "leap" week is thrown in to further adjust things! So Nebuchadnezzar's "7 years", in reality would have been 2555 days, not 2520 days. In turn, the 2520 years should in reality be 2555 years! This solar calendar is described thoroughly in I Enoch and the Book of Jubilees. (I shamelessly took this info from Leolaia and resources she's provided, so credit totally goes to her!)


    Check out what the "Daniel's Prophecy" book says:


    *** dp chap. 6 p. 95 par. 26 Unraveling the Mystery of the Great Tree ***

    26 Evidently, Nebuchadnezzar’s “seven times” involved seven years. In prophecy, a year averages 360 days, or 12 months of 30 days each. (Compare Revelation 12:6, 14.) So the king’s “seven times,” or seven years, were 360 days multiplied by 7, or 2,520 days. But what about the major fulfillment of his dream? The prophetic “seven times” lasted much longer than 2,520 days.

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    Never...May I suggest that you go to the members directory and look up Don Cameron. His book entitled: Captives of a Concept. Puts the nail in the 1914 and 1919 doctrines. It will add to what you have already posted. Farkel is a gem of a poster. Go to his member directory and read up on some of his writings. He has wit and humor in all his writings.

    Thanks for your post topic, you show us another way to approach this 1914 false teaching.

    Blueblades

  • R.Crusoe
    R.Crusoe

    It is misleading! Telling anyone to believe in dates as if God provided them. They are used as a lever to psychologically help you convince yourself that you must act quickly and commit your soul to that which it is not fully convinced about. And once baptized you will wake up as to the bigger picture of not using your own mind to decide things. Look at all the dates that have been dropped over the last 100 years! They could have done without them now that they have proved garbage - but would people have been so hasty after being made to feel nervous about the imminence of Armageddon? It is a bad thing to press anyone to avoid their own heart and mind with scripture : 'It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his own step'; 'the heart of man is treachorous' etc. till you almost question your own will on everything and force yourself to need literature for day to day life.

  • neverendingjourney
    neverendingjourney

    I think I made a mistake by trying to explain my thoughts using a mathematical equation. It's apparently confusing, and I apologize. When we get to writing things down, we often know what we intend to say, but we don't always communicate it effectively. It frequently takes other people reviewing our own work to point out where it's unclear. I should have expressed my thoughts a little more clearly so that discussion did not evolve into mathematical arguments. However, let's not lose the forest for the trees.

    I know algebra. Believe me, I sat through many torturous hours in school learning higher math. In pure mathematical terms, you are all right. The equation is solvable. You can use simple algebra to find out what the unknown variable is. Obviously, the variable z in that equation can only be a 2. You can use elementary algebra to figure that out. That, however, wasn't my point. What I'm saying is that you must verify each element before you can say that you've reached an accurate conclusion. If there is any step in the process of forming a conclusion which cannot be proven, you can never say that your conclusion is without a doubt accurate. That the point. Please understand that you can't use algebra to verify any of the Society's six assumptions listed above.

    In developing the 1914 doctrine, the Society begins by assuming that Daniel Chapter 4 has a second fulfillment, and they build upon that assumption with several other unverifiable assumptions. They take all of these steps and claim to have arrived upon an accurate Bible truth. Using the Bible, you can't prove whether or not Daniel Chapter 4 does or does not have a second application. You can't definitely prove any of the other assumptions that they make along the way either. To undergo that process and conclude that you’ve arrived at an irrefutable Bible truth is illogical and goes against all good reason.

    Maybe this example will help. I come home late in the day to realize that my house has been broken into. I start with the assumption that my neighbor, Fred, must have done it because he and I don't get along very well. I look at my watch and realize its 7:00 p.m. I conclude that Fred must have broken into my house no more than an hour ago because he gets off of work at 6:00 p.m. I then assume that he must have driven away in his grey Toyota Camry that he uses for work because he only owns two cars and his wife always uses the other one. I also know that Fred drives down the main interstate that passes through our hometown every day on his way to work, so I assume that he must have driven away on the same interstate that's he so intimately familiar with. Therefore, I conclude that Fred broke into my house between the hours of 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. and then drove away on the interstate in his grey Toyota Camry. I've arrived at a perfectly valid conclusion, right? I should call the cops and have them stop all grey Toyota Camry's on the interstate that are no further than an hour's drive from my home, shouldn’t I? Obviously, the answer to both questions is NO!

    What I've come up with is a hypothesis. I haven't verified any of the elements that I used to arrive at my conclusion. Again, the point is that the Society has no reason to treat their 1914 doctrine as being undeniably correct. They treat the doctrine as truth and expect their followers to do the same. They demand that they make life’s most important decisions under the assumption that the end times began in 1914. This is dishonest and illogical. That's the point that I was attempting to get across. Sorry for the confusion.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    I liked your algebra illustration. It was clear as a bell to me when you explained that.
    I guess in my line of work I'm used to breaking things down into equations.

    The way for you to fix that illustration is to do away with the pre-determined answer, 1914.

    So your presentation would go, "in order to find out when the Gentile Times mentioned by Christ in Luke xx:xx occurred, we need to add up s,t,u,v,x & y, since the time frame is dependent on ALL of these variables. But if any one of these values are missing, how can we come up with the answer? How can we know the answer to 1 + x without knowing the value of x?"

    Something like that.

  • allreadygone
    allreadygone

    To all you 1914 nay sayers out there you forgot one very important thing 1914 is not the WTBTS date it is Jehovah's date and we could not change it if we wanted to. And so was 1874, 1915, 1919, 1925, 1935,1975.................... so how dare you Q US. What ever you do DO NOT THINK FOR YOUR SELFS!!!!

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