587/607 Question...

by deaconbluez 129 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom

    Note ---

    This might be a good time to mention that several years ago (in July 2003) I started a thread called
    "586/587 the K.I.S.S. approach --- no VAT4956, Ptolemy, Josephus needed."

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx

    In the present thread we are discussing the data in the cuneiform astronomical diary VAT 4956.

    But I cannot emphasize too strongly that NO KNOWLEDGE of Akkadian, VAT 4956, Ptolemy, Josephus, etc. is necessary to disprove the Watchtower Society's date of 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezar.

    ALL that is needed are the following:

    1. The Watchtower Society's "absolute" date of 539 BCE for the fall of Babylon.
    2. The Watchtower Society's own information on the reigns of the neo-Babylonian kings.
    3. The ability to count backwards.

    It's the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple, sweetie) approach to deconstructing the Society's erroneous 607 BCE chronology. Click on the link for more information, for an easy-to-follow countdown of dates, and for quotes from WT literature.

    Enjoy!
    Marjorie Alley

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly
    The point is that Furuli skips the data on the time-intervals, and this data absolutely refutes his theory that the lunar observations in VAT 4956 are an "excellent fit" for the year 588/586 BCE.

    The Lunar Three omissions are more serious, of course. But to add to the mix he skips days too. Alleymom picked some examples back on p.2 of this thread.

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom

    While we wait for Scholar to post a response to my last messages, I'd like to add a comment for the lurkers.

    IMO, it's just amazing - breathtaking, really - to input the data from Babylonian astronomical diary VAT 4956 into modern astronomical software programs and see the results displayed on starmaps.

    When you consider how huge the dome of the sky is above us, and just how many places there are where the planets and moon could be, it's thrilling to use the software and see them pop up where the ancient astronomers described them as being located.

    It's almost like having a time machine -- we can see what the sky over Babylon looked like on any night, in any year, with the moon at just the right phase.

    Pretty cool.

    Marjorie

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years." (Gen. 1:14)

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom

    Hi, Neil (Scholar) --

    I was thinking about our conversation, and I'd like to share something from my own life that I hope may be helpful to you.

    I have had experience tutoring middle-aged adults in math (they were making career changes and needed to pass college-level math for certification in their new career).

    And what I have observed is that there are plenty of intelligent, competent people out there who are quite capable in their jobs, but who have an absolute phobia about math. When confronted with word problems or charts with row after row of figures, they just freeze up. I can even tell the moment when they stop "getting it," because their eyes sort of glaze over.

    I honestly mean no disrespect when I say that I rather suspect that when you look at the rows and rows of figures in Furuli's charts, you find yourself getting confused. I doubt if you have a clear picture in your mind of what all the data indicates about what the sky looks like and where the moon is in relation to the sun and the stars.

    But if you were standing outside and had a friend to explain the data to you, someone who would actually point out the various stars and constellations and help you trace the path of the moon night after night, everything would become clear.

    With the help of modern astronomy software, you can actually watch the moon and sun move through the sky on specified dates in history. You can find the names of the stars and constellations and check the various positions.

    You could see the sun rise and set and you could see the moon rise and set --- and that is all that is needed to demonstrate beyond any shadow of doubt that Furuli's artificial year 588/587 BCE does NOT fit the sunrise-to-moonset, moonrise-to-sunrise, and sunet-to-moonset data in VAT 4956.

    Neil, let me give one example. On dates near the middle of a lunar month, the moon sets in the western sky shortly after the sun comes up in the east. So you have sunrise in the east, and then a little later you have moonset in the west. You can measure how much time passes between sunrise and moonset.

    VAT 4956 gives measurements on two different days (Month I, day 14 and Month XII, day 12) for the time-interval between sunrise and moonset.

    Furuli's dates are absolutely impossible, because on his days, the moon actually set before sunup! You can't measure the interval between sunrise and moonset if the moon has already set before the sun comes up.

    I hope this helps.

    If it still seems fuzzy to you, I wish you would just say so, and I will try to make it plainer. The best thing would be if you could look at the graphics and animation of the night sky using an astronomy program.

    Regards,
    Marjorie Alley

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    Neil:

    Dansk

    Josephus and the Bible agree as to the fact that the seventy years ran from the Fall of Jerusalem until the Return. Certainly. Nebuchadnezzer took Jewish captives in his 23 rd year but these were not from Judah. Judah was completely destroyed and desolated in the 18th regnal year of Nebuchanezzer which is exactly what the Bible writers depicted.

    Josephus does not connect the last deportation with the seventy years as you claim because those Jews were not in Judah at that time but elesewhere. Josephus nowhere begins the seventy years from any other event excepting from the destruction of Judah, Jerusalem and the Temple. Your claim are simply mistaken and misleading so just stick to the facts.

    scholar JW

    Jeremiah 44:14, 28 clearly show that those who "escaped from the sword" who had run down to Egypt were to return to Judea:

    Jer 44:14 "And there will come to be no escapee or survivor for the remnant of Judah who are entering in to reside there as aliens, in
    the land of Egypt, even to return to the land of Judah to which they are lifting up their soul[ful desire] to return in order to dwell; for they will not return, except some escaped ones.'"

    JER 44:28 "And as for the ones escaping from the sword, they will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number; and all those of the remnant of Judah, who are coming into the land of Egypt to reside there as aliens, will certainly know whose word comes true, that from me or that from them."'

    These two verses contradict what you are claiming. In order for your view to work, Judah had to be completely desolated after the destruction of Jerusalem. That doesn't work if they return in the 23rd year, which is precisely what occurred. Where, exactly, do these deported in the 23rd year come from?

    If they come from Egypt there's a problem since it is clear that there is the potential of them re-entering Judea, meaning it was not completely desolated with no one passing through. Now, Josephus specifically claims those deported in year 23 WERE from EGYPT.

    From the above we can establish that there were no other Jews to deport other than those remaining from the sword in Egypt. Your view only
    works if it is presumed there were Jews scattered all about outside Judea who were then rounded up and deported in year 23. There is
    an attempt to associate those who were scattered about with those who had fled Judea when Jerusalem was destroyed. But these ALL
    returned during the governorship of Gedaliah, leaving no significant numbers of Jews, therefore, to deport.

    JER. 40:11 And all the Jews that were in Mo´ab and among the sons of Am´mon and in E´dom and those who were in all the [other] lands,
    they also heard that the king of Babylon had given a remnant to Judah and that he had commissioned over them Ged·a·li´ah the son of
    A·hi´kam the son of Sha´phan. 12 And ALL the Jews began to return from ALL the places to which they had been dispersed, and they kept
    coming into the land of Judah to Ged·a·li´ah at Miz´pah. And they went gathering wine and summer fruits in very great quantity.

    Based on the above, therefore, there were no significant numbers of Jews in the surrounding areas anymore. They had all returned to Judea and become a composite remnant of people again. After Gedeliah was killed this remnant fled to Egypt and refused to return at
    Jeremiah's urging. So Nebuchadnezzar came into Egypt in year 23 and killed off the majority of those people and a few "remaining from
    the sword" on their way to Babylon stopped in Judea.

    Regards, Ian
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I've pointed out here in the past that archaeological evidence indicates that while the Babylonians depopulated most of the cities in Judah to varying degrees, they left the more rural Benjamin region intact and cultures continued there without interruption, especially in the towns of Gibeon, Gibeah, Bethel, and Mizpah (the administrative center). This was probably because Benjamin was a major olive oil producing center and was thus an economic asset to Babylon. Wine was also a major commodity. The "Mozah" stamps on jars primarily found in Mizpah (70% of Mozah impressions) and elsewhere in Benjamin is one piece of evidence indicating the continued agricultural production during the period, and noteworthy too is an ostracon from Mizpah bearing a Babylonian name (Mar-sharri-usur) written in Hebrew letters. The biblical account relates how Mizpah was designated as the capital of the Neo-Babylonian province but the account ends abruptly with the assassination of Gedaliah and it does not mention Mizpah again until the time of Nehemiah, so it does not relate what happened in the time in between, i.e. how long Johanan and his fellow Jews stayed in Egypt, whether Jeremiah died there, and what was happening in Judah after Johanan and his group left it, tho ch. 44 of Jeremiah implies that there would have been Jews returning to Judah after Johanan's flight.

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    Anytime a 587/607 debate pops up I cannot help myself but to put up a very simple comment.

    Everything the JW apologist tries to argue means very little unless he ties it in with a conclusion. What is the end result of actually believing that the fall to Babylon was in 607?

    Even if it could be proven we are left with very little. If we where to presuppose that 607 is correct there is still no reason whatsoever to believe that any of the conjectured nonsense the WTS attaches to it is correct.

    If Jesus did show up in 1914 and then decided to choose the true religion 3 1/2 years later who is to say it was the Watchotwer? I'd like a JW apologist to get into those facts for once.

  • Zico
    Zico

    Matthew 18:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    I'd like to see an apologist explain how Jesus could have been given something in 1914 that he already had?

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    Hi Leolaia,

    I've pointed out here in the past that archaeological evidence indicates that while the Babylonians depopulated most of the cities in Judah to varying degrees, they left the more rural Benjamin region intact and cultures continued there without interruption, especially in the towns of Gibeon, Gibeah, Bethel, and Mizpah (the administrative center). This was probably because Benjamin was a major olive oil producing center and was thus an economic asset to Babylon. Wine was also a major commodity. The "Mozah" stamps on jars primarily found in Mizpah (70% of Mozah impressions) and elsewhere in Benjamin is one piece of evidence indicating the continued agricultural production during the period, and noteworthy too is an ostracon from Mizpah bearing a Babylonian name (Mar-sharri-usur) written in Hebrew letters. The biblical account relates how Mizpah was designated as the capital of the Neo-Babylonian province but the account ends abruptly with the assassination of Gedaliah and it does not mention Mizpah again until the time of Nehemiah, so it does not relate what happened in the time in between, i.e. how long Johanan and his fellow Jews stayed in Egypt, whether Jeremiah died there, and what was happening in Judah after Johanan and his group left it, tho ch. 44 of Jeremiah implies that there would have been Jews returning to Judah after Johanan's flight.

    Wouldn't the above contradict both Josephus and the Bible's account that the entire region of both Northern and Southern kingdoms
    were a desolate waste for 70 years with no harvests? The excavation of Ashkelon shows a confirmed destruction by the Babylonians ending
    in the Persian Period, which was estimated by archaeologists to be 70-80 years long.

    On the evidence used to claim that Mizpah was still occupied, but with the entire region basically desolate, who were they going to
    trade with? Even Tyre was destroyed but would have had few people to trade with. If Babylon's policy was to gradually depopulate the
    entire region, it doesn't seem consistent that they would maintain an isolated post.

    Further, Josephus specifically indicates those remaining Jews from Egypt were deported to Babylon in year 23. That does not conflict
    with Jer. 44:14,28 which notes those "left remaining from the sword" would return to Judea, apparently for a brief stay the same year on
    their way to Babylon. Jer. 53:30 records the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. The archaeological challenge is to prove there was not a 70-year gap in the occupation of this town, a town that might have simply been abandoned (not destroyed, like Jerusalem or Ashkelon) and then reinhabited. Further, this seems to be a primary site for pottery - so who knows if lots of premade pottery from this site from earlier periods were then used in later periods after an interruption? So some of this could be a matter of interpretation of the artifacts which are still flexible enough to accommodate the the 70-year historical gap noted in the Bible.

    Ian

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit