jgnat:
But that doesn't make your interpretation any more right, does it?
I think it depends on what's more plausible. If I trip over, I could claim I fell over an invisible troll but I don't think anyone would believe me. Why? No proof for the invisible troll. Another explanation would be more satisfactory. God and the invisible troll are on equal footing, there's just as much reason to believe in either of them.
You are going to have to dig deeper than that. Where does the concept of a higher good come from? I would suggest, from your worldview, that it is a compilation, an accretion of generations of cultural imprinting. In other words, from Christianity.
I've heard this argument a gazillion and one times and there's a response to it in the first post in this thread in my message to BurnTheShips. I won't paste it again here, so just check there.
Don't assume. I say one God exists, and that many versions are out there to describe Him. All describe in part, but none the whole.
All are contradictory. Does God have multiple personality disorder?
Why? I want the reasons, in detail. They are important.
Why should we know what's real or not? I suppose it's because how we view the world affects how we act.
If I received a cheque in the post for a million pounds (or dollars), my belief would give me comfort, it would take away any stress I have about bills, it may give me the strength to phone up my boss and tell him where to stick it. That belief would change my life in so many good ways. But what if I found out the cheque was a fake, part of a TV show stunt for example? Well then I would have to live with the consequences of my actions. I would have lived a lie. I may have got other peoples hopes up. How about if my family got together every Sunday to talk about what we'd do with the money when it came? What if they quit their jobs, stopped trying to get the loan they were after, bought lots of expensive things with the money they had already?
It may be all well and good to have the comfort, but it comes with baggage. We saw a similar thing with the JWs in 1975. They believed something that wasn't real, and unfortunately it had side effects which were bad.
That's just one angle. There's a few others too.
In context, we were talking about the extinction of the native religions. SB maintained that reality led to their decline. I maintained that a majority religion killed it off. SB, you are going to have to provide proof to back up your assertion here.
I think in context I said that reality led to the decline of older gods, and then you gave the example of the Indian Americans beliefs. I then agreed with you that the majority came into it too. People are free to worship those gods now, but for the most part we choose not to. Not because we're not allowed, but because we don't see them as realistic now. Not every god dismissed has been dismissed under pressure. Sometimes they just die out over time because they are seen as superstitious.
I do maintain that following a traditional ritualistic killing of an animal that honors it, results in saner killing. I also maintain that the absence of that respect led to the extinction of the passenger pigeon and the near-extinction of the buffalo.
And in that way religious beliefs helped. They just aren't needed. I don't want animals to suffer, but I don't need to believe in unrealistic things to think that way.
SB, what gave you the concept of "good"?
(SW) Just check the first post to BurnTheShips.
Now, I would like to know what specific danger there is in belief.
It depends on the religion, so these won't all apply to one:
Prevents independent thought.
Children are indoctrinated.
Fear of hell/ armageddon.
Fear of life without an invisible friend.
People may pray instead of getting or giving real help.
Keeps people ignorant of the facts of life.
Creates a lack of concern for humanity's problems (if it's believed Jesus will be back any day now to help us out)
Holds back science.
Killing 'witches' (which continues to this day in some places)
Suicide bombing.
Planes flown into buildings.
Killing apostates.
Wars.
Catholics in Africa telling people condom use is immoral- not helping with the AIDS epidemic.
Opposing euthanasia.
Discrimination of homosexuals.
Killing homosexuals.
Women not treated as man's equal.
Guilt. Masturbation becomes a sin, people are made to feel they're not worthy and deserve death and that only religion can 'save' them.
People may give up on their dreams in this life hoping for a better afterlife.
writetoknow:
A quote I heard. I'm not sure of the author/speaker:
"Those who don't want their beliefs laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
You have the right to tell people all about your religion. Atheists also have the right to give their side. By saying we can't, you are making yourself out to be a hypocrite. Nobody hates you, but there are those who do hate what you believe, with good reason. You are not being forced to stop reading the Bible or go to church. These are words, and if you find them hateful you are under no obligation to read them. It may be seen as hate because you're not used to it, but it's just a taboo that's been broken. America seems to be on the verge of a theocracy and Islam (and all the dangers that brings) is spreading through Europe at an alarming rate. These religious groups may end up using nuclear weapons against each other (many in both groups believe that has to happen in order for their saviour to come back). If we don't speak up now, there may come a time where we'll be put to death or put in jail for not being religious. That may seem impossible now, but it's happened before, and if nobody says anything, what will stop it happening again? We can't take that chance.
