Does Fading from the Borg Lead to Deceit in Other Walks of Life?

by ThomasCovenant 30 Replies latest jw experiences

  • ThomasCovenant
    ThomasCovenant

    Hi

    Please, please remember I am asking a question, not stating a fact.

    There appears to be many advantages to fading out of the 'Truth' as opposed to a full blown "I don't believe it and I'm out of here regardless of consequences'' policy.

    Reading others postings and experiences here and my own local experiences I can truly see why many do so.

    I remember during the later stages of my still attending meetings talking to a couple who had stopped going to meetings a few years before. I told them that I didn't believe a word of it. I was more convinced it wasn't the truth than they were and yet I was still attending and they weren't. They asked how could we still keep going.

    In my defence I said that, as my wife and I had reasonably large extended family still in it and were involved in a large social circle here, it was harder for us to leave than them as they pretty well kept to themselves socially and only had one parent between them in the 'truth'. This was accepted by them but they asked how could I be true to myself and still pretend to go along with the farce.

    Again we reiterated the difficulty of losing family etc and that we didn't have an active role in the 'machinations' of the congregation, ie I was no longer on the 'school', had stopped door knocking years before and never answered.

    However their arguement about being true to myself/ourselves still struck a chord. Yes it was harder to leave, but from a selfish point of view we were unwilling to stop.

    You see my parents instilled in me a disliking of one thing more than any other when I was a boy growing up. This, by the way, was drummed into me in the 11 years before we started joining the JW's. In other words this was a moral stance I have developed without JW influence. That disliking was for lying and hypocrisy. (I know that's two but it's basically the same thing to me).

    I still have a tendency to see things as either truth or lie. Before anybody starts criticizing, I realize, of course, that life is absolutely not like that and there generally is no real truth or lie,(another matter of opinion I know). However it does cause me conscience issues when I know I am deliberately going against that nurtured position. Looking back I realize this is really the reason I had difficulty sharing fully in the belief system of the JW's.

    So back to my topic subject line. Whilst you ( or I ) are fading we have to engage in deceiving our family and 'brothers' into assuming we are still 'in'. Now looking at it from a black and white point of view for a minute please, that is deceit, which is lying. If we were opposed to lying whilst we were still a believer we now have to accept that that principle of not telling lies and deceiving people is a principle that we are willing to bend or even forgo to achieve our goal.

    Once we start to accept that our moral principle of not lying has basically gone out the window for our own personal benefit as we see it, do you think that will start to wittle away at a general principle of being an honest person in other walks of life?

    If, and I stress if, we accept that fading will almost inevitably involve deceiving does that equate to being a liar? If so, might the damage that may occur to our consciences spill over to other aspects of our lives?

    Will it make us more comfortable with deceiving/lying?

    As difficult as it may be to confront, do those of you who have taken a firm stand against the WT without fading, feel a lessening of respect to those who continue in the fade?

    I must stress once again that I am putting this forward as a point for discussion. Sometimes a provocative subject can lead us to confront difficult issues. In 'real' life I like to discuss difficult subjects where there very often is no answer. Just opinions. I would sometimes try that with 'brothers' and the conversation would alwways stop dead.

    Thanks

    Thomas Covenant

  • freyd
    freyd

    Look at the Jews. When they held to the Law, everything worked fine. When they abandoned the Law, everything went to pot.

  • MadTiger
    MadTiger

    How much truth are people entitled to about you? Theocratic warfare is not completely bogus.

    None of you told me your salaries yet, now did you? Why? 'Cause some things are "nunya," as in nunya damn business. Why try to make some things more important than others? Who's to say what is most important to you but you?

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    There is a Witness premise that if one "leaves the Truth" that you become a bad person, because that is what you must be at heart.

    I do not see that in practice . I keep quiet about some things I do and some people I speak to online, bit otherwise , no there is no difference in behaviour (If I can see myself as others do)

    I take a pride in showing that the absence of WT rules does not alter my charecter..

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Once we start to accept that our moral principle of not lying has basically gone out the window for our own personal benefit as we see it, do you think that will start to wittle away at a general principle of being an honest person in other walks of life?

    I was actually told by a counsellor (before I was a JW) that my thinking was BLACK & WHITE.
    Either things are BLACK or else they are WHITE. I left little for the gray in-between or for other
    colors. I should have listened better at that session. Anyway, if you feel that fading will be a
    problem, then you can abandon fading when you see a problem. If you feel the need to fade and
    are trying to avoid the problem, then avoid discussion of the things that make you lie.

    For me, I accept that I was deceived by WTS and I have no problem deceiving their minions.
    But I must limit how low I will stoop. If cornered by two JW's, I might lie my way out of a commitment
    in my statements, "NO, I am not prepared to say that Jehovah's Witnesses are not the one true religion."

    Even there, I only mislead instead of outright lying. "I am not prepared...." but really, JW's are not the
    one true religion. If asked question, "I don't have to answer your stinking questions." If it's family, the
    ones that you would really be concerned about lying to and making a habit of it, then carefully phrase your
    answers to avoid lying (as in the example above).

    I try just telling the truth, and not really misleading, but stopping short of saying anything significant.
    "Well, I have some problems with the doctrine. I can see how the GB are trying to maintain control."
    If asked a question I don't want to answer, "Each person must decide that for themselves, I can't answer
    that for you. I would never admit that outloud."

    If, and I stress if, we accept that fading will almost inevitably involve deceiving does that equate to being a liar? If so, might the damage that may occur to our consciences spill over to other aspects of our lives?

    Will it make us more comfortable with deceiving/lying?

    As difficult as it may be to confront, do those of you who have taken a firm stand against the WT without fading, feel a lessening of respect to those who continue in the fade?

    This is a possibility. It is part of my anxiety during the last month or so. I try to allow the
    deception only to the deceivers. I do see me misleading my mother a bit, but I know that
    she isn't ready for my total truth. As I stated above, if it gets to be too much, I will end the
    fade. Each person must live with their own decisions- fades are not for everyone. For those
    with children or grandchildren, it's got to be even harder than for us with adult family in the
    religion. An adult can usually tell that I am avoiding a question, hence no real deception.

    I have met a few (and PM'ed with scores of others) that just did not have the fade within them.
    They wished they could have faded, but knew in reality that they just needed to come out.
    There are others who would never even consider it, but want to be totally free of the BS.
    I think judging others for their different views and decisions on this is as wrong as the WTS is
    for judging inactive ones.

  • Georgiegirl
    Georgiegirl

    No, I disagree. Part of being true to myself is recognizing that I love my family, very much, and they are important to me. I also recognize that it would be very unkind for me to rip away the structure and life and some of them (at an advanced age) have built their lives around. Being true to myself also means honoring their choices as best as I am able. I don't see it as "lying" or as "hypocrisy". I've never been more honest and truer to my inner self which makes me more able to lead a truer life outside of the organization. So yes, I'm fading and dodging questions and doing everything everyone else who fades does. I don't see it as being hypocritical in this case.

    What does anger me and what I do see as hypocritical is those who have chosen to do it differently for other reasons who come across as judgemental and harsh and advocate behaviors that do not take into account familial ties and make it seem as if anyone who fades has less strength, less courage, less honesty. Trust me, it is FAR harder to be true to one's values by conducting a successful fade and at far harder cost than it would be to just wreak havoc on my life and the lives of my family by "screaming the truth about the borg from the rooftops".

  • wings
    wings

    Thomas Covenent I think this is a very valid issue for discussion on this board. I agree with OTWO about the stand to not judge or criticize others for fading or for not fading. It is an extremely difficult situation that I would not wish on anyone. It is made up of many daily decisions that add up to much more about being grey than black and white. Just because we are grey in a black and white ORG does not make us horrible deceitful people.

    Personally, I believe my fade did damage my character. If I had found this site sooner, it might not have been as devistating to me. I could have gotten off the gerble wheel of "I am a bad person-I'm not a bad person-I am a bad person..." and began to work through it more mechanically than emotionally. It was so much about not being ready/able to face the consequences of complete honesty. I wasn't ready to lose my husband. I knew he might stay with me, but would certainly abandon me emotionally. I couldn't handle that, COULD NOT HANDLE THAT, during the years of my fade. That's is just honest. Right or wrong....it is honest.

  • yknot
    yknot

    Very good question. It would appear that to others, at times you would have to less then forthright, concerning JW activity/beliefs in your life. I think it really more depends on your situation. If you have family still, friends you don't want to lose, or nosy elders, I think you will have a greater chance of having to choose whether to be honest or not. If you fade with no one left behind, then no, you have no reason not to be clear about your beliefs. It is sad the the Society, has brought on the situation.

    But ask yourself this, after fading, if you are baptized, do you plan to participate in activities that can get you Df'ed? If you plan to join fully the land of the "worldly" then I suggested in another post how to leave the Society (letter of DA), in 6 months without losing anything local.

    Below is the 6 month plan.

    1. Move your pub card to a congo that is 1-2 hours away (get a P.O. Box or Mailboxes etc if needed). Plan on making 1 meeting once a month, for 4 months, advise the elders you are having "personal problems".

    2. Move pub card gain to another congo even farther. Tell the elders you are having personal problems, never elaborate to much, just pressures of life stuff. Do the same as above except for 2 months.

    Now prepare a letter of DA, do not give any real details. Say with a heavy heart you feel you must leave, and resolve your personal problems, as they are getting in the way of serving Jehovah's Organization. You fear if you do not properly get a grip on the matter it will bring reproach onto the Borg, that you will moving to another state. Be firm, hand the letter over, walk away with head hung down in dispair to the door of the KH. While elders begin to fill out S-77/S-79 inside, skip to your car, get in drive off, whoop and holller, declare as loud as possible at 2nd intersection away from the KH, that you are

    FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD YOU ARE FREE AT LAST!

    Since you have withdrew you membership, at a congo 4 or more hours away, and you have twice removed your pub card from your local congo, and told the Elders of the last congo your intentions to move out of state. Chances are pretty good that no one will hear about it locally. If quizzed by people who you don't wanna discuss you personal beliefs with, tell them "it personal" and drop the subject.

  • fresia
    fresia

    I think the presure that the org puts on families is unrealistic, if you don't believe its the truth and dont' want to attend meetings and give it in, then you more than likely will loose contact with youre family, and what if you are living at home, I understand that one would feel deceitful by pretence, but these unrealistic unscriptual rules pust one in the position that is not normal, just pack up and leave and you pay the consequences.

    I'm not condoning deceit but I think you are being way to hard on your self. Think of the position and think of who put the rules on youre decisions. If you are not a criminal or in danger of hurting others, their restrictions hurt others that are innocent so where is the logic in feeling the way you do.

  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    oh, lighten up. You're engaging in a typical JW-Jesuitical over-analysis. You're fading, go ahead and fade without having to explain yourself to others.

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