On STUMBLING BLOCKS

by You Know 56 Replies latest jw friends

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  4horsemen

  The classic Witness argument against being stumbled...

  "If your 'brother' did something to stumble you, would you stop speaking to your father?"

  The 4th grade retort...

  "If you went into a restaurant and the food was terrible, and the service rude and demeaning, would you blame your fellow customers or yourself? Or should you assign greater responsibility to the management?"

  The "management" (ie, the WTS) has for the better part of a century provided a sub standard product. People are people. Who are we to judge them or be stumbled by them? What did Jesus tell Peter regarding how many times to forgive his brother? "I say to you, not, up to seven times, but up to seventy seven times." Matt 18:21,22

  I do not think a majority of people have left the WTS because they had a problem with a brother or sister. I think the problem lies in the false prophecies, doctrine changes, and hypocrisy of the managements edicts, and behavior of some members being allowed that another commits and is DF'd for. The "stumbling" or is it awakening? comes from the realization that the proclamations originate from men and not from God.

  Deu 18:20-22 leaves no doubt as to their identity.
• 

  D wiltshire

  4horsemen,

  Good points and very solid, I got to try to remember you.
  I like your reasoning.

  If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
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  bjc2012

  You Know:

  From my standpoint, this is one of the most significant events as far as the fulfillment of Bible prophecy is concerned. I seriously doubt if the brothers involved even have any idea of the trap that they have stepped in. That’s the nature of traps and stumbling blocks. On the other hand, it may well be the work of plants, who, by their smooth words, have deliberately sabotaged the Society without anyone being quite aware of the extent. At any rate, there is more reason now than ever before for Jehovah's loyal ones to anticipate a total house cleaning. That, of course, is exactly what Christ promises to do when he arrives for his final inspection. / You Know

  Here is the Bible Prophecy that Christ is concerned about, the one you refuse to see.

  "In that day you [Israel] will not be ashamed because of all your dealings with which you transgressed against me, for then I shall REMOVE FROM THE MIDST OF YOU YOUR HAUGHTILY EXULTANT ONES ; and you will never again be haughty in my Holy Mountain." (Zephaniah 3:11)

  What you do not want to see is that God "removes" all the "haughtily exultant ones" from the congregation. The real culprits. Bible prophecy indicates he identifies the real villians. You refuse to see this.

  Jesus, extracts them from the congregation's whole or body. Bible prophecy indicates it is the leaders who by their wicked "dealings" cause Israel to "transgress against" God. They cause Israel (JWs) to sin. It is the Governing Body that commits the "transgression that causes desolation." (Daniel 8:12, 13)

  Something you cannot admit.

  What you refuse to see, is the "haughtily exultant ones" are the Governing Body of JWs, the "Man of Lawlessness," acting as a "god", "publicly showing himself to be a [rival] god," in God's Temple. (2 Thess. 2:3-12)

  You refuse to see the Governing Body are the real presumptuous, haughty ones "in the holy mountain" of God; they are the "haughtily exultant" among JWs.

  "And I shall certainly let remain in the midst of you a people humble and lowly, and they will actually take refuge in the name of Jehovah As regards the remaining ones of Israel, they will do no unrighteousness, nor speak a lie, nor will there be found in their mouths a tricky tongue; for they themselves will feed and actually lie stretched out, and there will be no one making them tremble." (Zephaniah 3:12, 13)

  It can proven, Jehovah's Witnesses, are following a group of very wicked individuals at Bethel, who categorically teach them to out-and-out "LIE." Its printed in their publications as proof, under the definition of a "lie". They are taught to "lie" in the Name of God, shamelessly, brazenly. They are taught "unrighteousness" Like how to "speak a lie," and misrepresent themselves and the truth, as so-called "Theocratic Strategy", to the "Superior Authorities." For instance, the United Nations Organization, governmental figures and others outside the congregation. Those who have "Relative Authority" over christians, given them by God. Christians are plainly told not to "oppose" nor "take a stand against" these "authorities" lest we become enemies with God. (Romans 13:1,2)

  The Governing Body of JWs, lied, openly to those governmental "authorities," the United Nations Organization. And when found out, they "lied" to the congregation and the press, while secretly removing their status as NGOs for the United Nations Organization.

  The Governing Body are low-life liars, in God's Name. And, likewise Jehovah's Witnesses are taught to speak with the "mouth of a tricky tongue." They are truly a "tricky tongue" people. Taught that way by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  We can only imagine what God has in store for these miserable, wretched souls who would sully His Great Name. (Jer. 23:19, 20; 30:23, 24)

  Only, the "humble" will survive what God has in store for them, for their unrepentant and repeated "lying", speaking untruth, deliberate untruth in His Name.

  This is what you, You Know, refuse to see from Bible prophecy.

  bjc
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  JT

  4horsemen

  You are on a Roll-smile

  I like it-- i like it
• 

  Pureheart

  I do not think a majority of people have left the WTS because they had a problem with a brother or sister. I think the problem lies in the false prophecies, doctrine changes, and hypocrisy of the managements edicts, and behavior of some members being allowed that another commits and is DF'd for. The "stumbling" or is it awakening? comes from the realization that the proclamations originate from men and not from God.

  Deu 18:20-22 leaves no doubt as to their identity.

  Could not have said it better!!!!!!!!!!

  Pureheart
• 

  You Know

  bjc2012:

  "In that day you [Israel] will not be ashamed because of all your dealings with which you transgressed against me, for then I shall REMOVE FROM THE MIDST OF YOU YOUR HAUGHTILY EXULTANT ONES ; and you will never again be haughty in my Holy Mountain."What you do not want to see is that God "removes" all the "haughtily exultant ones" from the congregation. The real culprits. Bible prophecy indicates he identifies the real villians. You refuse to see this.

  Not at all. I see it perfectly clear. That's why I frequently remind readers that Jehovah will judge his people. The point is by your own admission that the prophecies apply to Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Jesus, extracts them from the congregation's whole or body. Bible prophecy indicates it is the leaders who by their wicked "dealings" cause Israel to "transgress against" God. They cause Israel (JWs) to sin. It is the Governing Body that commits the "transgression that causes desolation."

  Correct. I have pointed out many times that God will correct and chastise his sons. If he didn't we would in fact be bastards. But again, that prophecy only can apply if we are actually composed of Jehovah's anointed ones and their friends. So we welcome God's rebuke knowing that Jehovah breaks a bone but he also binds up.

  What you refuse to see, is the "haughtily exultant ones" are the Governing Body of JWs, the "Man of Lawlessness," acting as a "god", "publicly showing himself to be a [rival] god," in God's Temple.

  It is not my place to point fingers or speculate about who is naughty and who is nice. I will leave that to the evil slave his apostate dupes. I trust that Christ will in due time expose any and all of the Devil's agents that have infiltrated Jehovah's organization and those who have proved unfaithful to their Master.

  You refuse to see the Governing Body are the real presumptuous, haughty ones "in the holy mountain" of God; they are the "haughtily exultant" among JWs.

  There may perhaps be some unfaithful ones at the top, I don't know. I refuse to allow myself to become an Accuser of Jehovah's anointed ones though. It is not my place to judge the house servant of another. Neither is it your prerogative to judge although evidently you have presumptuously doned the Judge's robe. I in fact regularly pray that God gives the Governing Body the wisdom to accomplish God's will. But, Judas was after all one of Christ's chosen apostles. Ray Franz was a Governing Body member too, so yes, obviously, it is possible that God would allow such a thing as wicked men to obtain to a place of authority over his house. But, Christ judges each of us on an individual basis as well as an organization. Of course, those who are given much there is more than usual demanded of them. So we will see how it all turns out. I trust Christ's ability to judge and his inclination to be merciful.

  It can proven, Jehovah's Witnesses, are following a group of very wicked individuals at Bethel, who categorically teach them to out-and-out "LIE."....BLAH, BLAH, BLAH,"

  Well, fine, then. Jehovah's judgment is really the answer then. As you pointed out, Jehovah will let remain a humble remnant. That means the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses will be judged favorably. Apostate accusers really have nothing to do with God's judgments. You are a mere apostate finger pointer who seeks to use God's pre-recorded judgments to make yourself appear righteous. Where's the honor in that?

  The Governing Body are low-life liars, in God's Name. And, likewise Jehovah's Witnesses are taught to speak with the "mouth of a tricky tongue." They are truly a "tricky tongue" people. Taught that way by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  And let me guess, You are the man of God, right? LOL. You just want to get a front row seat at the hanging sounds like.

  Only, the "humble" will survive what God has in store for them, for their unrepentant and repeated "lying", speaking untruth, deliberate untruth in His Name.

  Right on. Just be patient man. Jehovah will take care of all this. It's really none of your business any way is it? I can't see how it is.

  This is what you, You Know, refuse to see from Bible prophecy.

  You are a very presumputous fellow. I am well aware of Jehovah's judgments and welcome them. Just as Jesus wanted God's will to be done in his case even though it meant he would be humiliated and crushed. The body of Christ must die a death like Jesus.' That means we must bear a humiliation similar to Christ's in order to share in his glory to be revealed.

  / You Know
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  You Know

  PUREHEART:

  Deu 18:20-22 leaves no doubt as to their identity.

  Apparently you have fallen for a clever apostate trick. The law found at Dueteronomy applied to the Israelite nation that had prophets who were directly inspired by God with original messages. There were also false prophets that claimed to have messages from God, so Jehovah provided a criteria to establish who was true. Since the Bible's completion there is no need for inspired prophets. Our prophesying, as it were, applys to understanding Bible prophecy as it relates to Christ's kingdom.

  What is interesting though, is the New Testament's use of the expression "false prophets." The portion of Scripture where it establishes the criteria for Christians to help them identify false prophets today is found at 2 Peter the 2nd chapter. The entire chapter reveals the modus operandi of false prophets during the period of Christ's presence. Read it and you will see that it cannot possibly apply to the Watchtower Society. Yes, a carful verse by verse examination of that span of Scripture reveals that the Biblical false prophets we are facing today are actually apostate false teachers who seek to prey upon Jehovah's people.

  Unquestionably Jehovah's Witnesses have experienced unrealized expectations as regards the end of this system, but that in and of itself does not make us false prophets. On the contrary, it reveals that we are the ones who are on the watch waiting for the Master's return; and as Jesus warned, his arrival may not come in the first watch of the night, or even in the second watch. Clearly we are now in the last hour before the dawn. Previous disappointments won't mean anything when Jesus finally arrives and this system goes down in ashes.

  / You Know
• 

  willy_think

  back to the point

  On the topic of stumbling: Stumbling typically involves the mistakes of others whether real or perceived. The reason Jehovah does not consider any stumbling block as a valid reason for abandoning one’s faith is because a person’s faith should be in Jehovah and Christ in the first place. And since God most assuredly did not let his worshipper down, what a fellow believer does or does not do should have no bearing upon our personal relationship with our heavenly Father. The problem lies in the feebleness of faith in the one stumbled. That’s why Paul, in discussing the issue of stumbling, said that: “the weak man eats vegetables.” (Out of fear that the meat might have been offered to some phony deity)

  if this is a true statement then it must be applied to the universal church of the 1st 2nd 3rd........century. that being so i must ask yet again.

  "since God most assuredly did not let his worshipper down"

  then why arn't you orthodox or catholic?
  why one of the new "faiths"?

  There is in fact NOTHING that you can throw at me that I cannot answer with either God's word or my faith

  
  yk
• 

  wannahelp

  Hi You know:

  You said:

  "The law found at Dueteronomy applied to the Israelite nation that had prophets who were directly inspired by God with original messages. There were also false prophets that claimed to have messages from God, so Jehovah provided a criteria to establish who was true. Since the Bible's completion there is no need for inspired prophets. "

  I could have sworn I read somewhere (WTY Jan 15, 2001, page 12 - "Overseers and Ministral Servants Theocratically Appointed") where the "theocratic order" you now hold in the JW religion was done by "Jehovah" himself, and that all MS, Elders, etc were appointed by the holy spirit itself..!!!

  How does Jehovah tell you if someone is 'worthy' of the position or not?

  I also thought that the organization claimed that the F&DS was "DIRECTLY INSPIRED BY JEHOVAH".. After all, where does all your "new light" come from? It couldn't be that men just decide on a whim to change things, do they? No, isn't it Jehovah himself that sends the 'new light'? For, if it's just men, then aren't you just like the Pharisees?

  Finally, who gave you the right to change the baptismal voes? The bible states, "In the name of the father, son and holy ghost".. You now ask 2 questions (See WT June 1, 1985) and no where is the holy ghost mentioned... In fact, it states "God spirit-directed organization"... So, either God gave the F&DS personal knowledge "Directly inspired" to change the bible text, or men changed the bible text? For that matter, if you claim they were not "directly inspired", then I would like to hear your explanation of "Indirectly inspired"..

  If God did it, then you are claiming "inspiration", in which case Deut applies.. If men did it, then the "plauges" are brought upon you for adding or subtracting from the bible itself (See Last few paragraphs of Revelation).. You choose..!!!

  Or, are you claiming that the "inspiration" blinks on and off just like your "new light"? When the F&DS say something that turns out to be false, they claim they were not inspired, but a mere man was fallible.. When they speak of everything else which has not been proven false yet, it was via divine inspiration.. Funny how divine inspiration turns out to be "man's fallibility" after the fact.. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.. Use god's name until we are proven wrong, then revert to human fallibility..

  With that in mind, are you speaking using Jehovah's name when in reality Jehovah had nothing to do with 'new light', appointment of elders, etc?

  BTW: The Jan 15, 2001 article touches on Baptismal issues as well.. Of course, they quote the "in the name of the Father, Son and holy Spirit" in the article, just fail to mention that is not what they preach any longer!!! (As usual)..
• 

  MDS

  You Know:

  On Sept. 19th 2001, under the Topic "Latest Installment of Apostate Doom..." you wrote:

  As regards my expression ---initial phase of the tribulation---that you took exception to, we could point to the 1st century fulfillment of Christ's words regarding the disgusting thing encroaching upon a holy place. That event, which occurred in 67 C.E., when the Romans under Gallius besieged the city, marked the beginning of the tribulation. That was the signal for Christians to take decisive action. As it turned out the Roman legions withdrew and didn't return for over 3 years. So, what occurred then in 67 was an INITIAL PHASE of the tribulation that was to follow. And primarily that initial phase of distress affected Christians who obeyed Jesus and left their homes and businesses, and perhaps families in some cases. That was their trial; their judgment, if you will. The rest of the city that stayed received their judgment later when the Romans imperial legions returned and crushed Jerusalem. So in the grander fulfillment, the initial phase of the tribulation that comes upon the world will serve God's purpose of testig and refining his own. As the tribulation progresses to its conclusion, then God's judgments against the world are revealed at Armageddon. Like in 67, the judgment is based upon how each one responds to the distressing events of the initial phase of the tribulation.

  Isn't the above information that you have so eloguently provided, the actual "proof" and scriptural basis for all faithful JWs to "flee" modern-day Jerusalem of our times, the Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses under the guidance of the Governing Body?

  WE MUST ADMIT THE "SITUATION" FACING ALL JWS TODAY:

  1. The "Disgusting thing" Jesus spoke of = United Nation Organization where "the [Bible] reader [All JWS] must use [spiritual] discernment" to escape calamity. -- Matt. 24:15

  2. The Beast "standing where he ought not/in Holy Place" = WTS/GB voluntary becomes UN NGO/DPI (greedily receiving money from UN Organization and accepting perks like free air fare, etc.)

  3. The "Transgression That Causes Desolation" (Dan. 8:13) = Writing of Sept. 8th, 1991 Awake! supportive article on United Nations (and subsequent favorable articles written on United Nations Organization since that year...no one "twists their arm" to write such...completely voluntary action)

  4. Jesus commands his disciples to "flee Jerusalem" (City called by God's Name) Deut. 16:6; Jer. 25:29; Dan. 9:19 = All sincere JWs "flee" JWs/WTS Organization...before coming "days of vengeneance"/"wrath" upon this people - Matt. 24:15, 16; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:21-24

  5. Modern-day "Jerusalem" from which All JWs should "flee" = "The Great City," aka "Babylon the Great" ... where the "Man of Lawlessness" (Governing Body) presides and "publicly shows himself to be a god," by openly breaking God's Law with impunity or any corrective action on the JW flock's part. -- Revelation 11:8; 18:8, 18; 2 Thess. 2:3-12

  6. 70 Years of "Captivity" to "Babylon, the Great City" -- the "City that is called by God's Name" has ended...October 2001. Reminiscient of what Daniel "discerned" from reading "Jeremiah" for ancient "Israel." A repeat of this situation, all over again. -- Daniel 9:2; 9:19; Revelation 11:8; 18:8, 18

  7. Amazingly, the "Babylonish Captivity" Ends on Anniversary of 70 Years of "Captivity" & of "Declaring God's Name," October 2001, exactly when the "transgression which causes desolation" has been revealed by Jehovah God Himself..."coming on a swift cloud." They will no longer be allowed to "boast in His Name." -- Isa. 19:1-4; Psalms 105:1-3; See publication: "Jehovah's Witnesses In the Divine Purpose" pgs. 125, 126 and October 1931 release of publication "The Hope of the World Is God's Kingdom, and There is No Other Hope" which was the beginning of "Declaring God's Name" or "Naming the Name of Jehovah" as a united people. -- Psalms 105:1; 2 Tim. 2:19

  Based upon the above, wouldn't you say, All sincere JWs have to voluntarily "get out of Babylon", "Jerusalem", the "Great City", JWs Organization to please Jehovah? -- Rev. 11:8; 18:2, 4, 8, 18

  MDS