Did Jesus rise from the dead with 1.His physical body (or) 2. As a spirit

by jesusisgod 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    JCanon,

    Just click on my name above the picture and it takes you to my profile which contains my website. This is a feature of JWD. A good time to bring your profile up to date as well. OOPS, sorry they must have changed some of its features. Did not find it myself. http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/

    Joseph

    P.S. Fixed it at last. Thanks

    Thanks! I did click on your name and it just gave me your stats, so I assumed as much as well. Thanks for the direct link! I'm sure others might not be as familiar either. JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hello Joseph. I read through some points in the anti-Christ article. It is a complex discussion.

    I won't comment on every point, but one of them would be that you can interpret some things in different ways where the ultimate meaning will compatible with varying views, so it would only be necessary to compare those views. For instance, when Christ says he will "raise up" his body after three days, that works as an angel he could materialize his body. Since other scriptures would come into play to deterimine this meaning or not, that reference would be considered inconclusive.

    What I did find that I have an alternative opinion on is this statement you make:

    When our Lord appears it will be in a body of flesh, Acts 1:11. And as "we the sons of God" have never experienced immortality "when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." Fulfillment of this scripture must wait until that time when Acts 1:11 is fulfilled, but this will be a body of flesh, immortal, human "as he is" for that is how our Lord appeared to John after his crucifixion.

    This is a complex reference and so it serves to quote the entire verse for the context: "1 John 3: 2 Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.

    I believe this is a reference for those who see Christ at the second coming will be in the same type of body he is in, obviously, and thus they will see him just as he is at that time. That's because, Jesus' "as is" state at the time was as a spirit or in a materialized body. When Christ goes up into heaven he cannot take his materialized body with him, he must be in angelic form.

    On the other hand, the first stage of the resurrection is back into the flesh since Christ and the anointed who are resurrected before the millennium will be back in the flesh. They do not get their spiritual bodies until man's last enemy death has been destroyed and that is not until after Judgment Day. That is, not until after all mankind have been judged and Death has been cast into the lake of fire, and that does not happen until after Satan has been let loose and then destroyed. That is when those in fleshly bodies along with Christ will be transformed into incorruptible spiritual bodies that can dwell in heaven.

    However, the physical body that is contrasted with the spiritual body is not an immortal, incorruptible body, but an imperfect body. So when the Bible says that the resurrection is like a seed that is "sown into dishonor" or "sown into a physical body" that is literal. That means that those to be resurrected are placed into the imperfect physical bodies of other anointed ones and they remain that way until after the millennium is over and after Judgment Day is over. Since Christ himself will appear in an imperfect body as well, the body of the prodigal son and "Lazarus" at the second coming, of course those in the imperfect flesh will, as the scriptures say, be in the same type of body he has and also be able to see him just as he is.

    Now as proof Christ will appear in the imperfect flesh at the second coming, is the second wave offering. Unleavened bread represents Christ's sinless body. Everybody knows that. Also everybody knows that the firstfruits represent Christ at the time of the two wave offerings. Well the first wave offering is without leaven and it is part of the celebration of the unfermented cakes. But the second wave offering is different. It is of two loaves with leaven. Leaven represents "sin" and imperfection and so the body of Christ at the second coming is correctly represented by a loaf with leaven.

    Leviticus 23: 15 “‘And YOU must count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day of YOUR bringing the sheaf of the wave offering, seven sabbaths. They should prove to be complete. 16 To the day after the seventh sabbath YOU should count, fifty days, and YOU must present a new grain offering to Jehovah. 17 Out of YOUR dwelling places YOU should bring two loaves as a wave offering. Of two tenths of an e´phah of fine flour they should prove to be. They should be baked leavened, as first ripe fruits to Jehovah.

    Now this, if anything, is completely fundamental. The unleavened bread represents the sinless body of Christ; thus the leavened bread represents the sinful body of Christ. Only the unleavened bread come first, representing the first coming, and the second wave offering of the firstfruits represents the second coming.

    Now, Joseph, you'll love this! Few people other than yourself appreciate that Christ dies on Nisan 20th. But you do! As you know, Pentecost is 50 days from the 15th, and thus 45 days from the 20th. Christ's ministry over 3.5 years which included 43 lunar months thus can be compared to a period of 1290 days ending on the 20th. That means that Pentecost fulfills the "1335 days", a prophesy connected with the second coming. As you know, JWs used the "1335 days" prophecy to prophecy the second coming of Christ in connection with 1874, remember? So it's not a novice concept, whether one agrees with that interpretation or not, but since I know you're not into chronology, you'll have to accept my reference; chronology is not your area of expertise but it is mine.

    Having noted that, obviously, not only are the two wave offerings not parallel but being different represent the difference between the first and second coming. There is no getting around the difference between the two firstfruit wave offerings and it begs for explanation, one that is clearly apparent. So that is all that is needed to establish that premise.

    What we can do, though, is see if this is supported by any other reference in scripture, and it is. Case in point, Revelation, where we find a woman giving birth to the messiah at the time Satan is kicked out of heaven, and then that woman fleeing from Satan to a safe place prepared for her by God. The child is caught up to God in heaven after it is born. What can this mean? For one, we know this woman must be on the earth because that is where Satan has been cast. This woman, thus represents a special class of God's anointed servants. The child born to her, obviously, must be one of her members that becomes the messiah. But note where Jesus Christ is at this time. He's Michael the Archangel who along with his angelic host making up 2/3rds of the angels booted Satan out of heaven along with Satan's demon angels making up 1/3rd of the angels. But guess what?!!!! You have two messiahs going on here! So what gives? One archangel in heaven and one new messiah being born at the time Satan is cast out of heaven. Can we resolve this? Of course! There are indeed two messiahs at this time, but the infant messiah being caught to to God, to his "bosom position" means the two messiahs are combined. Thus this is Revelation's way of illustrating how the Christ in heaven takes up the imperfect body of one of his followers; one which further scriptures confirms is Lazarus and the prodigal son.

    Finally, we know there is a critical difference between the first and second coming as the first time Christ dies once for all time for the sins of mankind. But the next time he arrives it is not in regard to sin. He arrives as a king-priest like Melchizedek. This is an important distinction between the first and second coming. Thus quite consistent with the setting of Jesus being represented as a king-priest by high-priest Joshua at Zechariah 3, we find the same scenario as the "prodigal son", where Joshua appears with befouled garments that need to exchanged for the "robes of state", just as the prodigal son is given new robes when he appears after a life of sin.

    Zech 3: 3 Now as for Joshua, he happened to be clothed in befouled garments and standing before the angel. 4 Then he answered and said to those standing before him: “Remove the befouled garments from upon him.” And he went on to say to him: “See, I have caused your error to pass away from upon you, and there is a clothing of you with robes of state.” 5 At that I said: “Let them put a clean turban upon his head.” And they proceeded to put the clean turban upon his head and to clothe him with garments; and the angel of Jehovah was standing by.

    The befouled garments represent his past sins, his receiving new robes represent his being forgiven, as this scripture clearly shows. You need only compare that to what happens to the prodigal son who arrives and is likewise given a grand new robe, "the best one", meaning the "robes of state", the robes of the heir to the kingdom:

    The Prodigal Son Becomes the Messiah and gets new robes

    Luke 15: 20 So he rose and went to his father. While he was yet a long way off, his father caught sight of him and was moved with pity, and he ran and fell upon his neck and tenderly kissed him. 21 Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Make me as one of your hired men.’ 22 But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quick! bring out a robe, the best one, and clothe him with it, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened young bull, slaughter it and let us eat and enjoy ourselves, 24 because this my son was dead and came to life again; he was lost and was found.’ And they started to enjoy themselves.

    See the similarity here? Zechariah is simply representing the nature of the second coming, where the prodigal son, represented by high-priest Joshua, an imperfect man with many past sins appears before Jehovah and Jehovah makes him the messiah.

    But getting back to the issue of Christ's original body. Of course, he cannot materialize it any more after it had been offered in sacrifice. He gave up access to that perfect body and the right to have children by it. Logistically, therefore, there was the issue of how he would reappear in the flesh to rule as a king? Answer: One of his servants would be chosen to reincarnate Christ back into the flesh at the second coming. So after Christ rises to heaven, he lost his ability to materialize in the flesh again. The next time he would be seen in the flesh would be in the body of someone else. This was one reason why Christ, when reappearing over 40 days after his resurrection didn't just materialize in his same body or at least not the identifical appearance as before, but used different appearances. That's because that body would never be seen again and so his disciples wouldn't recognize him. In fact, part of the aspect of being like Melchizedek would even be that he wouldn't have a specific Jewish lineage! Thus just as the nation of Israel bowed down to God's king-priest Melchizedek when Abraham paid tithes, so in the end the Jews would again bow down to a non-Jew in the form of king-priest melchizek at the second coming, even though as Jesus Christ, he would have the legal right as a descendant of King David by virtue of his first coming through that line.

    Now. If you don't have this understanding, then I'm wondering if you actually believe the Bible or not, right? But I'm wondering anyway since you dispise God's word by ignoring the chronology, right? Chronology is the "extra oil" of the wise virgins. You can't find your way clearly to the messiah without it.

    So, Joseph, what you must do is to convince me that the difference between the two wave offerings, the first without leaven and the second with leaven are not fulfilled by Christ's body at the first and second coming, respectively. You can never. It's too obvious and direct. But I appreciate your opinion to dodge the issue if you wish like you dodge chronology. But denial is not a form of enlightenment.

    JC

  • Bonnie_Clyde
    Bonnie_Clyde

    Luke 24:13: The disciples were on the road to Emmaus (after the resurrection) and (verse 15) Jesus approached them, and walked with them, conversing with them. They did not recognize him. The WT argument is that he was a raised a spirit but materialized into a different human body. It wasn't until hours later when they reclined for a meal, Jesus broke bread, blessed it, and then the disciples now recognized him because of his mannerisms.

    Does anyone have a different explanation? Some have said they didn't recognize him because of their intense grief. I find that difficult to believe.

  • jesusisgod
    jesusisgod

    Heathen or JCanon,

    Where in the Bioble does it teach that Jesus rose from the dead as a spirit being? THe verse where Jesus is hanging on the cross is only proof that Jesus committed His Spirit to His Father. This is not the resurrection.

    Also for Jesus to materialize flesh and bones and say he rose from the dead in a body when it wasn't the case wouldn't he be lying?

    Next when Jesus said, "Destroy this temple..." What does temple stand for? Read context please. Its his physical body. And what does he then raise up? In His own power? His physical tangeble body.

    Lets talk about John 2:19.

    Robin

  • jesusisgod
    jesusisgod

    Bonnie,

    The resurrection I believe was a physical one. Jesus said, "Destroy this temple (meaning his body)..and I will raise it up" John 2:19

    Next we see Jesus showing himself to his disciples whom though he was a mere spirit. But Jesus tells and shows them this isnt the case. Look and see for a spirit doesnt have flesh and bones as you see I do.

    Then we see Jesus saying to doubting Thomas who would believe in the resurrection until he saw Jesus risen. Jesus said to him to touch his wounds, his side where the spear thrust through. It was at this point that Thomas became a true believer.

    For Jesus to take on a different body goes against John 2:19. "Destroy THIS temple(body)" not some other temple. And if Jesus just materialized a body which was not "THIS TEMPLE" the one whom he told the Pharasees he would raise up then Jesus lied to them. There is no scriptures to backup held within context, to support anything else but the physical bodily resurrection.

    Robin

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Heathen or JCanon,

    Where in the Bioble does it teach that Jesus rose from the dead as a spirit being? THe verse where Jesus is hanging on the cross is only proof that Jesus committed His Spirit to His Father. This is not the resurrection.

    Also for Jesus to materialize flesh and bones and say he rose from the dead in a body when it wasn't the case wouldn't he be lying?

    Next when Jesus said, "Destroy this temple..." What does temple stand for? Read context please. Its his physical body. And what does he then raise up? In His own power? His physical tangeble body.

    Lets talk about John 2:19.

    Robin

    Good questions. But here's what I focus on in my belief that he was a spirit angel materializing. He would vanish into thin air or just appear suddenly. That to me suggests an angel materializing. When Christ said he would "rise up his body", if he rose as a spirit, it would mean he brought his body back to life by reinhabiting it when he materialized it. Thus his rising his body again meant reconstituting his human body. JC

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    JCanon,

    I do not have the time this morning for such a long article. But the thing that is common between the human and non-human Christ is His life. So when God restored this life once again Jesus could use it to raise His body and continue to use it for some 40 more days. He had the ability to conceal himself from others and this was covered in the article. This does not mean that it took another body to do that. Did it take another body to walk on water? On the immortality of the human Christ. I gave the scriptural reference for such immortality of the human nature. Now this does not indicate how we will look when we get such immortality. That is what you seem perplexed about but you are not discussing the same thing. On all this numbers thing, I do not bother with it. Hardly anything else is understood correctly so why bother with such speculation. Just grasping what it takes to be a Christian in the Kingdom and why takes all my time.

    Joseph

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I agree that many apparition stories in the Gospels do imply bodily resurrection (at least at the basic narrative level). Luke, in particular, insists on it in no ambiguous terms.

    However, I don't think this is the only understanding of resurrection in the NT. In the same Gospels (and even in Luke, cf. the Emmaus story) hints to a "spiritual" resurrection are also apparent (Jesus appears and disappears, is not recognised etc.). Not to mention the segments of early Christianity where resurrection played no role at all (e.g. Hebrews, where Christ enters the heavenly sanctuary through his death) or is mostly understood metaphorically (GJohn).

    Should I venture a synthesis of Paul's views (which are not entirely consistent) it might be the following: "Christ Jesus" is not a mere man, but God's heavenly Son who took the appearance of mankind (Romans 8:3; Philippians 2:7). Through his resurrection he (his apparent physical body?) becomes a spiritual body -- not an individual one among others but the body to which believers are grafted through baptism (Romans 6) and the Eucharist (1 Corinthians 11). From then on he can described as the body of believers (1 Corinthians 12) as well as the Spirit animating that body (1 Corinthians 15:45).

  • heathen
    heathen

    I do have a different out look on the topic than most people . I believe jesus was a perfect human with no genetic relationship to mary or joseph , In fact he was a clone from a different genetic line than the imperfect human family. Therefor to try and say the scripture mentioned of dying in corruption and raised in incorruption doesn't apply in his case . He received his powers after his baptism and the spirit descends on him like a dove. He knows that his body is the adamic equivelent to redeam mankind from orginal sin. He offers his body as a perpetual sacrifce for sin putting an end to the mosaic sacrifices that included blood from animals and such. During his death his spirit is removed(father why have you forsaken me)(I entrust my spirit) so that he can die as a man and not as a hybrid , there is some mention of him preaching to the dead or something like that while in the grave ,anyway, 3 days later he comes back and raises what was in the tomb . The fact he does appear in different forms to the apostles afterward shows he is capable of taking human form , unlike what the WTBTS claims that he is only a spirit and cannot take human form again. It does say he will return just as he departed , possibly in human form where great crowds of people see him.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Joseph,

    I agree with you!

    JCanon,

    I do not have the time this morning for such a long article. But the thing that is common between the human and non-human Christ is His life. So when God restored this life once again Jesus could use it to raise His body and continue to use it for some 40 more days. He had the ability to conceal himself from others and this was covered in the article. This does not mean that it took another body to do that.

    Here I agree/concede. Precisely how Jesus reappeared in his body is a technicality not revealed or apparent.

    Did it take another body to walk on water?

    No. But he did look like the "gardener" either and it was the same body. Jesus didn't just disappear in front of people or reappear behind locked doors. So yes Jesus did miracles but he was not an angel. There is a difference, or at least I would make note of this difference here. that Jesus did after the resurrection was distinct from things he did before.

    On the immortality of the human Christ. I gave the scriptural reference for such immortality of the human nature. Now this does not indicate how we will look when we get such immortality. That is what you seem perplexed about but you are not discussing the same thing.

    I am not perplexed over this at all. 1 Corinithians talks about the "ressurrection". It quite plainly says the resurrection is like a seed that is sown into a physical body then raised in a spiritual one. It is sown in "corruption" and raised in "incorruption." It plainly says " 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual." See that? FIRST is the physical, and THEN is the spiritual. Two phases to the resurrection. Only associated with the physical are some non-immortal things, like "weakness", "corruption." So that is the basis for considering as context for other scriptures that the first phase of the resurrection is back into an imperfect body. What do you think it is "SOWN INTO A PHYSICAL BODY" means? I'm interpreting that as the implanting of resurrected ones into the bodies of modern individuals as a possibility. In the meantime, neither you nor the WTS can explain how it is or when it is that the resurrection takes place in such a way that ALL together are changed as 1 Thess 4:15-18 explains. That's right. No one gets changed from incorruption to incorruption head of the others. All get their prize together.

    15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

    Note that the dead rise FIRST and then "together" with those already alive are changed and "caught away in the clouds". See that? TWO PHASES. Two phases. This thus reflects the same two phases of 1 Corinthians. First the physical, then the spiritual. When you understand it that way, and we understand the 1st resurrection involves the implanting into imperfect physical bodies, then it is indeed possible for all the anointed to get their heavenly prizes together. That's because when the dead are first raised back into physical bodies, all are in the same state for a period of time before they are then converted to spiritual form. This period of time, though, is over 1000 years!

    Thus you nor JWs explain how it is that those alive on the earth can become immortal at the same time as those who are alive when Christ arrives.

    You also have the issue of the timing here. It says that Christ is in heaven when this major resurrection of the dead occurs. He is in heaven as Michael the archangel and descends and raises the dead. He uses an archangel's voice meaning he is in the form of an archangel. We know from Revelation that the 1st resurrection occurs before the millennium begins. These are on hand to be king-priests at the millennium. At the same time, we know that Christ himself reappears in the flesh. So combining this information, we presume that the 1st resurrection occurs prior to Christ taking up human form again, and therefore prior to the second coming. Now I know you don't like chronology and I can see why, because even the "7 times" prophecy with three dates potentially for the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, 587BCE or 529BCE all represent past dates, i.e. 1914, 1934 and 1992, respectively. So if the Bible is true, where are these resurrected people waiting to start ruling as king-priests? See, Joseph. The chronology in the Bible contradicts your view, so you just ignore it. It's too "confusing" and confounding for you, you claim. Of course, it would be if you have the wrong interpretation.

    But the chronology works out just fine if you just accept what the Bible says. Basically, before the second coming and Christ takes up a human body himself, while still Michael the archangel, he causes the 1st phase of the resurrection to take place by raising the dead which involves "sowing" them like seeds into physical bodies first, these are the physical bodies of modern living individuals who are still in "weakness". They are not spiritual yet. They join those "in Christ" who are still alive at this time. Thus all "in Christ" at this time are back in physical, imperfect bodies. Then Christ himself returns to the flesh and they see him because he also is in a physical body just like theirs at this time. They remain in the physical body all through the millennium, through Satan's release and destruction, and then during Judgment Day. At the point when death is destroyed, which is after the last person has been judged. When that occurs, and all the judging is done, then the second phase occurs where all in Christ receive their spiritual bodies. Neither you nor the WTS, therefore, are following scripture.

    On all this numbers thing, I do not bother with it. Hardly anything else is understood correctly so why bother with such speculation. Just grasping what it takes to be a Christian in the Kingdom and why takes all my time.

    Joseph

    I understand it and the Bible says in the end times, these sacred secrets and hidden things would be understood by some:

    Daniel 12: 3 “And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.

    4 “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”

    12 “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days! Are you "keeping in expectation", Joseph, as the Bible instructs? Now every detail of the chronology would not be revealed all at once. The Bible does say that all ten virgins "nod" and their lamps go low. The Bible does say that "immediately after the tribulation of those days" there would be a period of spiritual darkness among the primary body of God's people, only the "eagles" would see Christ when he first arrives. So precise understanding of chronology would not be known when Christ arrives and immediately after the "great tribulation" of Matthew, which was the Holocaust, with both Jews and JWs as targets of "Gog of Magog." But the fundamentals among God's people would be understood. They understood long ago that the "1335 days" pointed to the second coming; that's how they came up with 1874. Tha date is incorrect for that event, but the concept is understood. Same with the "7 times" prophecy, they understand the chronology represents 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem until the second coming. They get 1914 because they have the wrong date for the fall of Jerusalem, but the concept is clearly understood. Same with the "70 weeks". It is clear that the messiah must fulfill the 70th week and since he was baptized in 29 CE, even JWs come up with the correct date of 455 BCE to begin these 70 weeks. Now when Christ arrives, the five wise virgins are able to use their extra oil to sort all of this out. The foolish virgins do not have enough oil to do this. They foolish virgins are the ones who don't like chronology or don't bother with it. So even if they have insight into a lot of things in scripture, there are still inaccuracies in understanding without the correct chronology. So you see, Joseph, you automatically lose your own argument since the chronology contradicts your view and you refuse to deal with the chronology, claiming it is too confusing. Maybe it is for YOU. But not for those who take and interest in understanding it, rather than your position of thumbing your nose up at something in the scripture. And that's why you can't see, because you're in darkness for rejecting what God has given us to understand these things. What amazes me, is that even though you yourself don't understand chronology, you think that no one else does either. And even though you clearly admit you don't understand it and thus avoid it, you think others should do the same. Don't you know tha different persons are given different understanding of things, and maybe it was not your position to develop chronology but to learn it from others who are given that light? But instead of seeking out "those with insight" you presume since God hasn't given you light in that area that nobody else has that light either. Not smart. The result is I'm HAPPY as Daniel 12 says, because I know precisely then the "1335 days" ends. Chronology is part of the whole picture of my understanding of scripture. JC

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