The concept of "free will" fascinates me...

by changeling 26 Replies latest jw friends

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  jaguarbass

  I never thought Adam and Eve had free will even though that is what I was taught. There were strings attached. Free would be with no strings attached.

  So I figured the same guy who wrote the bible was the same guy who writes the adds on tv and in the local paper some dingbat who doesnt understand what free means. He should say strings attached. But then he couldnt pray on the gullable and innocent.

  Adam and Eve is ancient mans attempt to explain where man came from.

  Apparently no one knows or can prove it.

  I dont think the god of gennesis is loving. All one has to do is read the old testement the God of the Jews was not loving to mankind.

  Why do religionist say eating the fruit was an act of rebellion? Because they need new recruits to keep the ac on and pay the pastor and all the crisis churches mangage to get in each week.

  The bible is the only tool they have, they cant help it was so poorly writen and illogical. They need people in the seats. If they are Christian churches they have to use the bible.

  New age churches dont have to use the bible and may have more creative means to trap you in their churches.
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  jwfacts

  Sam Harris in The End of Faith p.272-274 discusses why free will is a logical impossibility. Free Will underlies the religious conceptions of ‘sin’ and retributive justice’. The concept of free will leads to the justification of ‘punishment’ rather than rehabilitation and or containment.

  In terms of cause and effect, either our wills are predetermined and hence we are not responsible for them, or they are a product of change, and we are not responsible for them. If a ‘choice’ we make is based on our genes, our childhood, the actions of our neurotransmitters etc, we cannot say we are free to choose what we do. We do not even choose the next thought that comes into our mind.

  Watchtower doctrine hardly leaves room for free will when it says that God will destroy 6 billion people for not being part of his organization, and that after the 1000 years anyone that does not follow his rules will be instantly destroyed.

  I guess a Watchtower apologist will say that those that survive the 1000 years will have the perfect upbringing not to have emotional baggage, will not have sin that will allow them to plead “temporary insanity”, and they will be the ones with genes that naturally move them to do what is right. However, if that is the type of person God will allow to live, then why did he not create Adam and Eve in that very mold in the first place?
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  Perry

  I think total free will is simply an illusion. We will always be DRAMATICALLY INFLUENCED by something or a "slave" as the scriptures puts it ...to someone. So Adam and Eve were highly influenced by the Almighty while receiving his blessings. With no backdrop of evil to contrast the Lord's goodness, they minimized its worth. Both chose to be influenced by another.... Satan by the latter and Eve by the former, being deceived into not realizing the cost. So while their choice of influences might be thought of as willful disobedience, I don't see it as free will simply because freedom infers an adequate knowing of the outcome of choices, or at least an understanding of what one is set free from. Except through revelation, we can never "know" enough about the ultimate consequences of our choices. Like Adam and Eve we choose our influences not out of free will but through the psychological agency of 'bettering ourselves". So our "free will" is ultimately chosen for us by the reality brokers that we choose.
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  changeling

  So Perry, you believe in Adam and Eve. Do you think they were set up? Would a loving god do that?

  changeling
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  feelinsketchy

  Rabbi Harold Kuschner has a very interesting and IMO practical view of the Genesis account. Pick up his book "How Good Do We Have To Be" It's at BN/Borders.
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  Awakened07

  About 'good and evil':

  -What if Satan, Adam and Eve had all remained loyal to God? Could it be said that mankind would then never have known about good/evil? It seems that the Genesis account points to the Tree of Knowledge as the only path to such. But evidently, Eve could be tempted by an outside influence, and Satan could be tempted by his own desires. So - say a million years after the creation of Adam and Eve - could it be said that in such a scenario, if a man on the opposite side of the globe from Eden was tempted to steal or kill someone else and acted on it, would he then not know that what he had done was bad? Would he have been unable to intellectually understand it by seeing the consequences it had for that man's family etc., and in his thoughts apply the same scenario to himself and his own family? Then what was the point of the Tree of Knowledge in the first place, if the concept of "good vs. evil" at some point would have had to come up anyway? Simply because it was necessary to establish an original, inherited sin? (I know many Christians - especially here it seems - don't take the account literally, but a great deal of Christians do, after all)
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  Perry

  I think that most of us will agree that there are a great many things that we could agree on that are bad.... for ourselves and others. So I guess God could have made and exhaustive list of such and had Adam and Eve study God's views for a few hundred years. But, then someone could say why did he teach us so much evil, was he setting us up for failure? Or, if he didn't have even one commandment, they could claim, "hey why didn't he warn us before we chose such and such.... he set me up". Instead he chose a simple tree to ultimately illustrate (1) his profound sense and commitment to justice.... and (2) the ends of the earth that he would go to..... including a viscious, shaming death by his own creatures to illustrate the extent of his Grace and love to those who accept the punishment intended for them that he took in their place. While I tend to believe it, the literalness of the account is irelevant to the truths embedded. Eventually we must all choose who to listen to.... it really is that simple.