Luke 16: 19-24

by vlad 47 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  vlad

  19 “But a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. 20 But a certain beggar named Laz´a·rus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers 21 and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers. 22 Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of Abraham.

  “Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in Ha´des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Laz´a·rus in the bosom [position] with him. 24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Laz´a·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’

  My old account does not seem to be working, so I am not a new member but I did not post loads anyway.

  I am an now an athiest myself but anytime I ask JWs about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase I am only doing it to tear them down. Etc., anyway the above scripture pretty clearly explains hell, the king james version paints an even clearer version of hell.

  Can you tell me the typicial JW answer to why this scripture does not describe the after life, heaven and hell?
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  jwfacts

  ***w8410/15pp.8-9TheRichManandLazarus—WhatIstheLesson?***

  God’s

  WordIsAlive

  The

  RichManandLazarus—WhatIstheLesson?

  JESUS CHRIST often taught a lesson by telling a story. Here is how Jesus began one famous story: "A certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. But a certain beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers."

  So Jesus simply said a certain man was rich, dressed expensively and ate well, while Lazarus was hungry, covered with ulcers and licked by dogs. Was this a story about real people? No. The Catholic JerusalemBible in a footnote explains that this is a "parable in story form without reference to any historical personage." Note why, from what Jesus next says:

  "Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham. Also, the rich man died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in the bosom position with him. So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’"—Luke 16:19-24.

  As you can see, Jesus said nothing about the rich man’s living a degraded life worthy of fiery punishment; the man’s failing was that he did not feed the poor. Further, Jesus said nothing about Lazarus’ doing good things, things that clearly would merit his going to heaven, which is what some churches claim is the meaning of his being taken to Abraham’s bosom. Furthermore, Abraham, like David, was dead and in his grave, so angels literally could not carry Lazarus to his bosom. (Acts 2:29, 34; John 3:13) And if the rich man were in a literal fire, surely Lazarus could not benefit him with just a drop of water!

  Who, then, was pictured by the rich man and who by Lazarus? What was represented by their deaths? The rich man pictured the self-important religious leaders who failed to feed the people spiritually, and Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus Christ. Their deaths represented a change in their condition.

  This change, or death to the former condition of the rich man and of Lazarus, occurred when Jesus fed the neglected Lazaruslike people spiritually. Thus, they came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the self-important Jewish religious leaders "died" with respect to having God’s favor and came to be tormented by the teachings of Christ and his followers. For example, when Stephen publicly exposed them, "they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth . . . and put their hands over their ears." They felt torment.—Acts 7:51-57.

  So rather than teaching a fiery-hell torment after death, Jesus’ story describes the change of condition that his teachings accomplished among two classes of people.

  The Watchtower claims this is figurative not literal. On the other hand, the Watchtower claims that the scriptures it uses in Isaiah for paradise earth are literal, not figurative. By picking and choosing which verses to take as literal and which to take as figurative Christian Churches can believe basically whatever they want to believe.

  There are 31,103 verses in the Bible and 31,000 Christian sects. Coincidence? :)
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  Arthur

  By picking and choosing which verses to take as literal and which to take as figurative Christian Churches can believe basically whatever they want to believe.

  Yes, and if a religious organization really wants to engage in some interpretative gymnastics, they can claim that twelve figurative tribes of a figurative 12,000 men all equal a literal number of 144,000.

  2008 Watchtower publication release: "How To Manipulate Minds With Biblical Exegisis" - Author Anonymous.
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  LtCmd.Lore

  Hello vlad, welcome back to the forum. I am also an atheist, but I'll put on my 'Bible Scholar' hat for a few minutes.

  Here is the reasoning book response:

  ***

  rsp.175par.1Hell***

  What

  doestheparablemean? The "rich man" represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

  This is flawed on several levels.

  But the main problem is that they get caught up on symbolism, and ignore one basic fact, namely: Every other parable Jesus EVER told, was based on REAL circumstances. He was talking to people about REAL events that they could relate too, why would this ONE time be any different? Jesus obviously expected his audience to believe in hell, otherwise it wouldn't have made any sense. Why would Jesus invent a fictional universe to make a point?

  If he didn't believe that hell existed, then it was pointless.

  "Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in Ha´des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Laz´a·rus in the bosom [position] with him.

  Now, if you didn't believe in hell, what would you be think while Jesus was relating this story? No objections where recorded: "But teacher, Ha'des is just a pit outside, what's the meaning of this jibberish about going there at death?"

  ***rsp.174par.5Hell***

  Is

  theaccount,atLuke16:19-31,literalormerelyanillustrationofsomethingelse?TheJerusalemBible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a "parable in story form without reference to any historical personage." If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.

  The story about the good samaritan was just a parable too. But that doesn't meen that Samaratins, theives, neighborly people, or the path to the temple are fictional... all the elements of Jesus other stories where real. Sci-Fi is not his style.

  Being based on fact and being taken entirely literal are NOT the same thing, you can believe that it was based on a REAL belief in hell without thinking that everything he said about it was a documentary. The WTS is REALLY stretching it here, they know as well as we do that 'bosom' was symbolic. And that they were supposed to be spirit creatures, so he wouldn't even HAVE a bosom.

  The Bible says that god has a hand, but that doesn't meen that god doesn't exist according to the Bible...

  There are plenty of other scriptures that indicate a hellfire:

  (Revelation 20:10) 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

  Frankly, if THAT verse can be disregarded as symbolic, then no verse in the Bible is specific enough to be taken literally.

  (Revelation 14:10-12) 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

  Same goes for that verse. These are pretty plain.

  So Jesus, the man who ALWAYS gave illustrations that were based on reality, told about a man that died and was burning in hades, Revelation says that Satan will be hurled into a lake of fire and tormented "forever and ever", it says the same thing about Satans followers, in Revelation 20: 13-15 death and hades are reffered to as two distinct, seperate things, it also says that those who are not in the book of life will be "hurled into the lake of fire".

  Acts 2:27 is particularly interesting because it talks about a soul being IN hades... if hades is the condition of being dead (gravedom) and the soul is a life, then they are mutually exclusive of each other, a life can NOT logically exist in death, so obviously soul means something other than just a life, and ha'des meens something other than just death. A live human can not be dead.

  (Acts 2:27) 27 because you will not leave my soul in Ha´des, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. .

  Lore
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  Mondo1

  There is much to be said about this verse. The context that leads up to the text is all of parables, starting in chapter 15 and working through 16, which is all a single context, giving indication that it is a parable. It is not dealing with departed souls, but with physical bodies with parts such as tongues, fingers, etc, that can consume water. The name Lazarus is significant in the parable because it means "He who God helps." It is not speaking of the final judgment in Gehenna, the lake of fire, but "hades" which is one of the things to be thrown into the lake. The language is drawn from a known tradition of the Pharisees and so he is using it to illustrate a point, much of which is explained by both the preface provided by Luke and the words of Jesus immediately prior to the parable. So is it teaching hell? No. It is a parable. Is it drawing from language that was used by those who believed in hell? Yes, but only because they knew the existing tradition and it fit the message that he was intending. Mondo
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  TheListener

  Mondo1,

  You said

  So is it teaching hell? No. It is a parable. Is it drawing from language that was used by those who believed in hell? Yes, but only because they knew the existing tradition and it fit the message that he was intending. Mondo

  I'm no biblical scholar but it doesn't make sense to me that Jesus would use an example in his parable that was based on a teaching he didn't agree with. I'm sure he could have come up with a different parable to explain how important it is to feed the poor, physically or spiritually.
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  JCanon

  Consider John 1:18, then go from there.

  JOHN 1:18 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

  JCanon
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  freeme

  Consider John 1:18, then go from there.

  JOHN 1:18 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

  JCanon

  there are scriptures which refer to an human actually seeing/talking/meeting god (i.e. john, moses, etc). we say in all those verses its actually an angel who acts as an middleman and that would explain the whole thing perfectly without contradictions (when you say the bible CANT have condradictions).

  in jesus story there was virtually no need to describe how the communication between the rich man and god actually takes place. when you pray to god (at least as a jw) you basically think you're talking to god even though jesus is the mediator and you actually talking to jesus in first place with a message for god.

  in this context your scripture basically means nothing or i did not get the point at all.
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  Hellrider

  Ahh, Mondo1 is back:

  There is much to be said about this verse. The context that leads up to the text is all of parables, starting in chapter 15 and working through 16, which is all a single context, giving indication that it is a parable. The language is drawn from a known tradition of the Pharisees and so he is using it to illustrate a point, much of which is explained by both the preface provided by Luke and the words of Jesus immediately prior to the parable.

  Yes, it`s a parable. Everyone can see that. But can you find even one other example of Jesus using heathen, ungodly doctrines in his parables?

  It is not dealing with departed souls, but with physical bodies with parts such as tongues, fingers, etc, that can consume water. The name Lazarus is significant in the parable because it means "He who God helps." It is not speaking of the final judgment in Gehenna, the lake of fire, but "hades" which is one of the things to be thrown into the lake.

  And yet, the rich man is conscious down there in Hades, as Lazarus is conscious in the "bosom of Abraham".

  So is it teaching hell?

  Yes. And how to avoid it.

  No. It is a parable. Is it drawing from language that was used by those who believed in hell? Yes, but only because they knew the existing tradition and it fit the message that he was intending. Mondo

  So you are saying that the son of God, Jesus Christ, would use a heathen, dispicable doctrine borrowed from heathen religions to prove a point? I would like to see you do that at your next talk at the KH. You would be dragged by the ears to the back room before you could say "Jehovah God".

  Can you find one more place in the NT where Jesus is using an ungodly doctrine in a parable, one he doesn`t believe in, to "prove a point"? I sure can`t.

  And we forgot to mention that Jesus speaks quite often about the punishment awaiting the wicked. "The fiery furnace", and so on.

  Further: If the parable is meant to warn agains a certain kind of behaviour (selfishness, rejecting God, etc.), which it clearly is, then, if Jesus truly believed that man has no soul, that the wicked are just going to be destroyed, and never be conscious again, wouldn`t you then say that the parable he is presenting is extremely misleading!??

  The jw-"symbolic" interpretation of the rich man and Lazarus is one of the stupidest doctrines within their entire religion (except for the 144000 janitors and window washers in heaven, of course).
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  Mondo1

  TheListener,

  And the apostle Paul could come up with ways to say things without quoting from Greek poets, but he did it anyway. It makes sense to use something that your audience is familiar with to explain something to them.