by erik 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • erik

    To AlanF:
    The definition of Generation has changed for the witnesses has changed. But it is a correct defintion Generation according to Websters...Group of people w same experiences beliefs and attitude in common

    When I said times I meant 9/11 bringing all these countries together for a common goal of peace and security for the world.

    True organization of people not used ie. Abraham, Noah etc... however a group of people were used. After Jesus came a new group of people were used to carry on with Gods word-Congregations.

    TO Yerusalyim:

    3. The only ones present with Jesus at that time were his apostles.

  • larc


    You asked about Ray Franz. There are several people who post here who have served at Bethel. Some of them knew Ray personally. One of them is Randy Watters. His web site, FreeMinds, is at the bottom of this page. He provides some detail about his own life at Bethel and what happened to Ray and others in the late 1970's.

    I only meet Rany once, at a weekend retreat. He is as kind and sincere as his writing. Ray knew my mother's Aunt, who worked directly for Rutherford, from 1938 until 1942. She lived at Beth Sarim after Rutherford's death until it was sold several years later.

  • concerned fiance
    concerned fiance


    I posted here several weeks ago regarding my fiance's turmoil and what we were going through. Although I know you mean well, since this began I have begun my own quest for knowledge and truth. I am reading WT publications that Erik has brought to me to read with the Bible, as well as lots of other stuff by Randy Watters, Ray Franz, etc. from the internet sites as well as various books. I am trying to educate myself as well as Erik. Right now, I think I have to be loving and supportive as Erik goes on this journey for truth. At some point, if God leads me to the belief that we truly are not meant for each other, I will let Erik know. But, for now, I am taking day by day, albeit truly difficult and emotional, and at times I feel like I am being destroyed, I know this is better for our relationship that these issues get worked out now rather than after the marriage. I truly believe that if God means for us to be together we will get through this and Erik and I will both be stronger individuals and each of us closer to God and our relationship will be stronger as well.

    For everyone else, please respond to Erik's questions if you can with scriptural basis. Does The Memorial truly have its roots in pagan ritual? is there proof of this?

  • larc


    There are several definitions of the word generation. The point is that the WT has changed the definition they use on several occassions. For example, in the 1950's they taught that a generation included the life span of those who were at the age of maturity in 1914. That would mean that the annointed were at least 60 in the 1950's, and therefore, Armageddon was due at any time. As I mentioned before, 120+ years is a loooooog time to keep the flock excited.

  • dungbeetle


    Welcome to the board...

    I am a JW with 27 years in and around the org. I am on my way out of the org, but I am doing the slow fade. It is the best way, but it is very hard.

    I am glad you weren't disfellowshipped for looking into your religion...many have been, and there are too many stories like this to think that ALL of them could be lying. Why would any of these people lie anyway? On the other hand, it ain't over till it's over, is it dear?

    in case you don't know it, some one to 1.5 million JW's have left this organization in the last couple of decades; over 30,000 elders have stepped aside in that same time period; and a staggering 70+% of the children of JW's do not become JW's themselves. amazing, isn't it? What do they know that we don't?

    I don't like doing the JW thing anymore where one can get bogged down in doctrine. Jesus said that we would know his true disciples (not his true org, mind you) by the love they have for one another; not doctrine, size, growth, money in the bank or real estate acreage (all JW claims, but not biblically based claims).

    Does the Governing Body show love for the Witnesses? Did they show love for the Malawian brothers when ordering them not to get a 25 cent party card? What about love for children when ordering their parents to forbid blood transfusions? And than bragging about it with their pictures on the cover of an Awake magazine? Did they show love for the Greek brothers, ordering them not to do alternative service and so 300 of them are now in Greek jails? What about the brothers in the Russian countries? Was it love to order the brothers there to dish out literature saying everyone except JW's are going to die die die...and then of course they are going to be persecuted!! All of them are. And where is the love for the women when elders were ordered to disfellowship them for not properly resisting a rapist; where is the love for the children when they are molestation survivors?

    And as for love, during the fall of the NYC towers, 2500+ Bethel workers pulled the shades and watched 15,000 people stagger across that bridge. Live forever with these people? Where's the cliff I can jump off of FIRST, thank you.

    And all of these are man-made doctines.

    And as far as 'the light getting brighter'...go read Ellen G White's writings way back in Russell's time, and you will see that it is just another doctrine that Russell stole from the SDA's and the Millerites.

    I could attack many of the other JW claims but there is no need...I'm sure others will rise to the occasion. I have this to add...no other religion sends convicted child molesters to peoples's doors...some before their criminal cases are even resolved.

    For reference, www.ajwrb.org and www.silentlambs.org are run by JW's in good standing in their congregations (for now). Go read these people's stories; feel their pain and then tell yourself this is 'the love' Jesus spoke of.

    And www.freeminds.org adn www.watchtower.org have the elder letters and UN documents if you must get into doctrine...but I was convinced long before getting to that stage.

    There is a world that the Governing Body does not want the JW's to see. A world where people of all religions can get along for periods of time; a world where JW, ex-jw and community members work together to promote positive change. And it is working.

    And one last thing. If 'apostates' were everything the JW say they are, there wouldn't be any Kingdom Halls left standing. If the world were the place JW say it is, there would be no JW's left alive in it.

    Pray more, go out in field service more, read the Bible more...it will fix eeeeeverythiiiing....<gag>

    If I wasn't still 'in' I wouldn't be this angry. Sitting through this CRAP three meetings a week is a little more enjoyable than sawing off one's own FOOT!!!

    Dungbeetle...so much dung, so little time...

  • wannahelp

    concerned fiance and/or Erik:

    Is there any way I can reach you? Email? Telephone?


    If you like, Give the helpline a call and tell Marylin it's ok for her to give out your phone # to me..

  • erik

    you can reach me at [email protected] and leave me your phone number. I will call you back, I would like to chat.

  • Trevor Scott
    Trevor Scott

    Some more comments,

    Erik, you said:

    Someone pointed out that you don’t need an organization, they pointed to Acts 2:38-41 where Peter pointed out that all that is needed is to repent and be baptized I the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit. However, if you keep reading, in verse 44, it says all those who become believers were together in having all things in common. This is unlike most every other religion, where you see today that there are various sects that separate from the core belief of the religion. You do not see this with the witnesses.

    Acts 2:44 is saying that the first century Christians had all their possessions in common, which the JWs most certainly do not. The New Living Translation renders Acts 2:44: "And all the believers met together constantly and shared everything they had."

    Notice verse 45 (NIV): "Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need". Do the witnesses do this? Not a chance. The "charity" of the WTS is virtually non-existant, despite the heavy emphisis on such in the NT (James 1:27). Other religions set up charities and hospitals. What does the Watchtower Society do with its billions of dollars? Build bigger and better bethel complexes, and hire more lawyers.


  • AlanF

    To erik:

    : The definition of Generation has changed for the witnesses has changed.

    Precisely. The point is that the concept has changed. The exact definition of the word used to describe the concept is irrelevant to the concept.

    This is exactly how the Society has handled the complete failure of its predictions of what was going to occur in 1914. Not a single thing that C. T. Russell wrote about 1914 came to pass. His predictions about pre-1914 events failed one by one, and as they failed, he changed some of his predictions about 1914. All of them failed too. Later, the Society gradually changed its claims about what Russell had predicted, so that now they claim or strongly suggest that Russell predicted WWI. They even claim that Russell predicted the establishment of Christ's heavenly kingdom in 1914 -- which he did not, since he taught that it had already been established in 1874.

    : But it is a correct defintion Generation according to Websters...Group of people w same experiences beliefs and attitude in common

    It doesn't matter. When their predictions failed, they changed their favored definition.

    : When I said times I meant 9/11 bringing all these countries together for a common goal of peace and security for the world.

    My comments still apply.

    : True organization of people not used ie. Abraham, Noah etc... however a group of people were used.

    And? Do keep in mind that two or more worshipers form a group. How many groups of worshipers of Jehovah existed, say, during Job's day?

    : After Jesus came a new group of people were used to carry on with Gods word-Congregations.

    Again, a congregation is two or more. But that's not the point. The point is that the Watchtower Society claims that it and it alone is the organization used by God to teach the world of mankind. That claim is demonstrably false.


  • Satanus


    Hang in there. These good people are addressing most of your questions. There is a lot involved in answering your questions. I will respond to only one topic. Does god use an organisation. An exbethelite, tom cabeen wrote a good answer to this. It is at: http://caic.org.au/jws/organization/godorg1.htm

    I would encourage you to download it and read it. While, in the bible, groups of people at times followed god or jesus, god mostly communicated to diverse individuals. When wanted to say something to someone, he often spoke directly to them, not going through what might be thought of as his spokesman or woman.

    The wt cannot show an uninterupted chain of gods org leading to charles russel. If you work back from russell, he got his stuff from the second/seventh day adventists, who were started by william miller in the early 18 hundreds. Miller in turn was a baptist. The baptists go way back to the ananaptists. Does the wt see these as gods org?? NO!

    If you feel the need to belong, well, in the christian world, jesus is the org. Peter said, lord to WHOM shall we go away to? You see, it is jesus. Church groups are merely incidental, for encouragement, but not to tell you what to do, or get between you and jesus. According to the bible, jesus can be in a billion places at once.

    So check out the org theory at the above address.


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