God is not Great

by hamsterbait 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    bikerchic:

    Eh......isn't God simply within and if we all wanted peace our God would be one of peace and the world would be a peaceful place. It's people doing bad in the name of their God. IMHO.

    Yes. People in the civilised world generally create their own gods and afterlife according to their own post-enlightenment principles and desires. Modern Christians, for example, generally reject most of the barbaric commandments of the bible god and replace him withan all-loving all-forgiving thoroughly modern individual who's cool with alternative lifestyles and casual adherence to his rules. Their god - while no more real than any other - is largely harmless because he obeys the societal mores that civilised people live by. However, in many parts of the world (most notably the Middle East and parts of the United States) people don't get to pick and choose which aspects of which god's character they like. They are taught from birth that their particular holy book is the literal and unquestionable word of God and must be slavishly obeyed. As these holy books were generally written thousands of years ago by primitive barbarians, their gods reflect society at that time and place. Those who obey them are likely to behave in appalling ways simply because they have no real concept of morality. The amount of good or harm done by their actions to individuals or society is irrelevant because morality to them simply consists of following the rule book.

    Basically, gods are just imaginary friends. I can indulge somebody's belief in them as long as they don't use their particular imaginary friend as a source of morality.

  • Scully
    Scully

    For those who are interested here's a bit of info on the author from Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    Here's a sample from the book, talking about Salman Rushdie- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18503995/site/newsweek/page/7/

    On February 14, 1989, my friend Salman Rushdie was hit by a simultaneous death sentence and life sentence, for the crime of writing a work of fiction. To be more precise, the theocratic head of a foreign state—the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran—publicly offered money, in his own name, to suborn the murder of a novelist who was a citizen of another country. Those who were encouraged to carry out this bribed assassination scheme, which extended to “all those involved in the publication” of The Satanic Verses, were offered not just the cold cash but also a free ticket to paradise. It is impossible to imagine a greater affront to every value of free expression. The ayatollah had not read, and probably could not read, and in any case forbade everyone else to read, the novel. But he succeeded in igniting ugly demonstrations, among Muslims in Britain as well as across the world, where crowds burned the book and screamed for the author to be fed to the flames as well.
    This episode—part horrifying and part grotesque—of course had its origins in the material or “real” world. The ayatollah, having flung away hundreds of thousands of young Iranian lives in an attempt to prolong the war which Saddam Hussein had started, and thereby to turn it into a victory for his own reactionary theology, had recently been forced to acknowledge reality and to agree to the United Nations cease-fire resolution that he had sworn he would drink poison before signing. He was in need, in other words, of an “issue.” A group of reactionary Muslims in South Africa, who sat in the puppet parliament of the apartheid regime, had announced that if Mr. Rushdie attended a book fair in their country he would be killed. A fundamentalist group in Pakistan had shed blood on the streets. Khomeini had to prove that he could not be outdone by anybody.

    As it happens, there are some statements allegedly made by the Prophet Muhammad, which are difficult to reconcile with Muslim teaching. Koranic scholars had attempted to square this circle by suggesting that, in these instances, the Prophet was accidentally taking dictation from Satan instead of from God. This ruse—which would not have disgraced the most sinuous school of medieval Christian apologetics—provided an excellent opportunity for a novelist to explore the relationship between holy writ and literature. But the literal mind does not understand the ironic mind, and sees it always as a source of danger. Moreover, Rushdie had been brought up as a Muslim and had an understanding of the Koran, which meant in effect that he was an apostate. And “apostasy,” according to the Koran, is punishable by death. There is no right to change religion, and all religious states have always insisted on harsh penalties for those who try it.

    A number of serious attempts were made to kill Rushdie by religious death squads supported from Iranian embassies. His Italian and Japanese translators were criminally assaulted, apparently in one case in the absurd belief that the translator might know his whereabouts, and one of them was savagely mutilated as he lay dying. His Norwegian publisher was shot in the back several times with a high-velocity rifle and left for dead in the snow, but astonishingly survived. One might have thought that such arrogant state-sponsored homicide, directed at a lonely and peaceful individual who pursued a life devoted to language, would have called forth a general condemnation. But such was not the case. In considered statements, the Vatican, the archbishop of Canterbury, and the chief sephardic rabbi of Israel all took a stand in sympathy with—the ayatollah. So did the cardinal archbishop of New York and many other lesser religious figures. While they usually managed a few words in which to deplore the resort to violence, all these men stated that the main problem raised by the publication of The Satanic Verses was not murder by mercenaries, but blasphemy. Some public figures not in holy orders, such as the Marxist writer John Berger, the Tory historian Hugh Trevor-Roper, and the doyen of espionage authors John Le Carré, also pronounced that Rushdie was the author of his own troubles, and had brought them on himself by “offending” a great monotheistic religion. There seemed nothing fantastic, to these people, in the British police having to defend an Indian-born ex-Muslim citizen from a concerted campaign to take his life in the name of god.

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Derek,

    My opinion is that we do the following

    * respect anyone's right to believe in God or Gods

    * not have to deride them for believing

    * make sure that if they behave in a way that is harmful to others (due to their belief in god) that this is NOT tolerated

    Religious tolerance has its limits, but we still don't need to ban all religion and mock all believers.

    Sirona

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    Sirona:

    * respect anyone's right to believe in God or Gods

    Absolutely. Or indeed their right to believe in elves, fairies, ghosts, unicorns etc.

    * not have to deride them for believing

    If someone believes something that is either patently untrue or so absurd as to be vanishingly unlikely, then I see no shame in attempting to correct them - in some circumstances I may even see it as a duty. If they insist despite the evidence - or even as many do, that evidence doesn't come into it - then they have shown themselves to be wilfully ignorant, and less intellectually honest than someone who bases their beliefs only on the available evidence. I will treat them accordingly.

    It's strange that we have no problem deriding people's ridiculous beliefs unless they label them as religious (or spiritual or any other near-synonym). It's fine to question people's political affiliations, their taste in art, fashion or music, or their idiosyncratic behaviour; but if they claim that they hold a particular belief as part of their religion then we can't even question it. Why should religion - which usually comprises some of the most ridiculous beliefs people hold - be exempt?

    * make sure that if they behave in a way that is harmful to others (due to their belief in god) that this is NOT tolerated

    Religious tolerance has its limits, but we still don't need to ban all religion

    Again we're in agreement. Behaviour that harms another person (with the usual caveats) cannot be tolerated but everyone should otherwise be free to believe whatever they wish. If someone wants to believe that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet, that's up to them. But I have just as much right to believe - and say - that Mohammed was a caravan-robbing paedophile. Unfortunately many Muslims will not respect my right to believe that.

    Further, many people believe for no good reason that they should mutilate and beat their children. That is unacceptable and tolerating the beliefs of a parent does not mean tolerating them harming a child.

    we still don't need to [...] mock all believers.

    Well, we don't need to. But why shouldn't we? We mock people who pay huge amounts of money for modern art that looks like it was drawn by a child. We mock people who voted for George Bush. We mock bald men with combovers. We mock people who wear Burberry baseball caps. Why shouldn't we mock someone who thinks that the creator of the universe will be angry if he switches a light on on a Saturday?

  • Scully
    Scully

    For those of you who need a little nudge before you decide to read the book, you can view Hutchins giving a lecture based on the book on YouTube:

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    Do you think the main reason we haven't heard a squeak from the Imams and Ayatollahs about this book is-

    It points out so many FACTS about Islam, they don't want the "faithful" reading it?

    A bit like the Witchtower avoiding quotes of sources the flock might look up and find enlightenment?

    HB

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