how do you feel about mandatory military service?

by The Humper 51 Replies latest jw friends

  • 5go
    5go
    There is nothing social about manditory military service, just because one is born in a country does not obligate one to fight for the particular government that presently rules. Only the brain dead or heavily indoctrinated would view it as social duty. You need to question authorty, not blindly follow leaders. If everyone just blindly goes along with what ever a government dictates I see no hope for humanity.

    Defence of one country not manditory. Funny, I thought it sort of was kind of like a police officer commdeering a car only he isn't comadeering a car it's you he wants you.

    Only the brain dead or heavily indoctrinated would view it as social duty.

    funny what did the founding fathers say on it.

    G. Washington 1783 (Written at the conclusion of the Revolutionary War)

    "But it proves more forcibly the necessity of obliging every citizen to be a soldier; this was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free State. Where there is no oppression there will be no pauper hirelings."

    T. Jefferson 1813 (Written in a letter to James Monroe)

    “We must train and classify the whole of our male citizens, and make military instruction a regular part of collegiate education. We can never be safe till this is done."

    One of the biggest political issues following the constitutional convention in 1787 was whether or not the new republic would have a professional military. The anti-federalists, led by Thomas Jefferson, promoted the example of Citizen- Soldiership put forth by the ancient Greeks and Romans. They feared that a professional military would inevitably become a tool used against the peoples’ interest, not for it. The way to prevent this was to comprise the military of every physically capable male citizen. This would not only make the American people careful not to start wars, in the event that war was inevitable, it would guarantee the full support and participation of the people. The original 2nd Amendment to the Constitution was intended to include a clause banning a professional army, and mandating that every citizen perform military service. On the other side of the issue was Alexander Hamilton and the Federalists. Hamilton sought to mount a professional military as soon as possible. In Federalist Paper #24 Hamilton stated, “If we mean to be a commercial people, or even to be secure on our Atlantic side, we must endeavor, as soon as possible, to have a navy. To this purpose there must be dock-yards and arsenals; and for the defense of these, fortifications, and probably garrisons.” Notice that Hamilton viewed the promotion of commercial interests as the primary duty of the military. Sound familiar? Of course, we all know what happened. Jefferson and the anti-federalists lost the argument and had to settle for the current incarnation of the 2nd Amendment, “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” Despite this, Thomas Jefferson didn’t give up on the issue. He continued to write to his colleagues and push for a system of national service. During his Presidency (1801-1809) he was able to choke the professional military down to a mere 3,000, though he did not stop the founding of West Point in 1802. He even offered the criticism that America wouldn’t have performed so poorly in the War of 1812 if the country had adopted a system of national service prior to the conflict. Our military, however, didn’t become the Nuvo-Redcoats that Alexander Hamilton envisioned, or the Uber-Militia that Jefferson sought. For most of our history our military has been a hybrid between the two, a blend of professionals and Citizen- Soldiers often giving us the best of both worlds. This changed after Vietnam though. The reconstitution of the military after the Vietnam War made our forces all-pro. The first reason for this was military planners wished to avoid the conscription problems experienced during the Vietnam War. Secondly, they looked at the 1967 Arab-Israeli Six-Day War and concluded that all future wars would move so quickly that there would be no time to conscript and train Citizen-Soldiers. The societal implications of the all-pro decision is profound. The average American is no longer expected to defend the state, a duty that notables from Aristotle to Machiavelli and Washington concluded was indispensable to the health of democracy. And now that we are engaged in a protracted war, we are exposing ourselves to the very problem Jefferson wished to avoid. Now people say, “Hold on, our men and women in uniform are courageous, well-intentioned, and honorable people.” To which I say, “You’re absolutely right, and that’s the problem. They are and you’re not.” We can’t keep sending our young people to places like Iraq and Afghanistan over and over again and expect them to still respect American society. They’ll correctly see our callousness and decadence in the face of their sacrifice, and it will incense them. And it’s not as though the Clintons and the Bushs haven’t given them adequate reason to despise civilian authority. You see, this is how the professional military becomes our adversary, not because they despise America, but because they love America so much that I fear they will not tolerate our infidelity forever.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    5,

    “We must train and classify the whole of our male citizens, and make military instruction a regular part of collegiate education. We can never be safe till this is done."

    So how does that figure in with modern technology and modern weapons, should they the colleges give mandatory training on rocket launchers, surface to air missile training, and should all american citizens be allow to own a few hand grenades, a rocket launcher, and a couple of smart bombs?

    One of the biggest political issues following the constitutional convention in 1787 was whether or not the new republic would have a professional military. The anti-federalists, led by Thomas Jefferson, promoted the example of Citizen- Soldiership put forth by the ancient Greeks and Romans. They feared that a professional military would inevitably become a tool used against the peoples’ interest, not for it. The way to prevent this was to comprise the military of every physically capable male citizen. This would not only make the American people careful not to start wars, in the event that war was inevitable, it would guarantee the full support and participation of the people. The original 2nd Amendment to the Constitution was intended to include a clause banning a professional army, and mandating that every citizen perform military service.

    I think that may have had a better chance of working in the 18th century, when all you needed was a musket, but with the invention of the repeating rifle, then the machine gun, hand grenades, helicopter, jets, chemical weapons, and all the rest that mordern technology brought into being, such advice may be a little outdated.

    And as far as your assumption " it would guarantee the full support and participation of the people" I see it as wishful thinking, unless you feel everyone is a programmed automaton.

  • 5go
    5go

    I think that may have had a better chance of working in the 18th century, when all you needed was a musket, but with the invention of the repeating rifle, then the machine gun, hand grenades, helicopter, jets, chemical weapons, and all the rest that mordern technology brought into being, such advice may be a little outdated.

    And as far as your assumption " it would guarantee the full support and participation of the people" I see it as wishful thinking, unless you feel everyone is a programmed automaton.

    Every operated a sail boat or a ship without GPS or fired a canon long ranges without a computer makes today weaponary look easy to use. Not only that but, the founding fathters ran into the problem of training battlefield engineers which took colledge even at that time. Nope your licked just admit it.

  • heathen
    heathen

    I'm agianst it all the way. I believe in free choice and self determination , to me that is a form of slavery to force people to work where they do not want to . I think we have enough people in the armed forces without it , if only we could get rid idiots like GW we might even get our national spending under control.

  • 5go
    5go
    I'm agianst it all the way. I believe in free choice and self determination , to me that is a form of slavery to force people to work where they do not want to . I think we have enough people in the armed forces without it , if only we could get rid idiots like GW we might even get our national spending under control.

    The reason we have an idiot like GW is because of chicken hawks who never served in the military yet want it to be a mob enforcer for there deals. And also they want protection money from countries least we seek regime change for their peoples own good. Can't do that with a draftee system they don't want to fight unless it's truly defencive fight.

    By the way a professional armies is tend to be used only by empires who can afford them. Hint Hint.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    5,

    The reason we have an idiot like GW is because of chicken hawks who never served in the military yet want it to be a mob enforcer for there deals.

    You have a very simplistic way of looking at things, you boil things down to a simpistic cause and allow no room for other possible reasons or causes. I'm sure if you open your mind a little you find there are other reason besides the only one you mentioned.

  • heathen
    heathen

    I agree with some of what 5go said. In the interest of globalization and forcing their will on other nations the government is using the military in the wrong ways , it is supposed to be defensive , pre emptive strikes on other nations is unconstitutional and illegal even by the UN standard of international law. The United States military is not to be used as a mercenary militia , anybody that reads the constitution will find that very easily. large military spending has brought many an empire to their knees , even the former soviet union put itself in very bad shape from over spending in that area.

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    Interestingly, I was speaking out in full support of precisely this idea this morning with a friend. I propose a two year mandatory period. Exemptions would apply in limited cases perhaps - like religious objectors. It would create a 'standing army' of millions - and a large reserve for those who stay actively interested after the formal time period. No need to draft in time of war - the argument that forced service doesn't work misses a big mark - this country has had to employ a forced draft for major conflicts like Viet-nam anyway.

    Several advantages - not the least of which is a reestablishment of discipline into the youth of our nation. It would encourage higher education due to the military picking up part of the cost [or some college could be part of the military training itself to kick start school]. It might help reduce some other societal problems also. It would lend focus during the service portion, and alertness when they returned to civilian status.

    I am all for it - and find it interesting that some politicians support it. I did not know that.

    Couldn't agree more Jeff. The only change I would make is that there would be NO exemptions unless in cases of severe health restrictions. If one is unable for whatever reason to enroll in mandatory military exercise for 2 years, then they would be put on civil duty. In other words, they would work at hospitals, on road crews, reconstruction and other things that would benefit the public and assist the country in times of natural disaster or war efforts. I would engage all of those who turn 18 and they would committ for 2 years. There would be made available, at least partial funding for those attending college afterward and some would take advantage of an offer of further training within the military in other jobs such as plumbing, electrical, engineering, healthcare, banking etc. I didn't know it was on the table during the debate either...it will never happen, but it's an interesting subject nontheless. sammieswife.

  • Who are you?
    Who are you?

    5go you've made some really good points and brought up some interesting quotes from the founding fathers.

    I think two years of service after HS would ultimately benefit those participating and ultimately the country for many of the reasons originally posted by Humper.

  • 5go
    5go

    5go you've made some really good points and brought up some interesting quotes from the founding fathers.

    I think two years of service after HS would ultimately benefit those participating and ultimately the country for many of the reasons originally posted by Humper.

    If nothing but to remind you the value of freedom. Said to say you have to be without something a while to value it.

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