I've noticed many of you that have your own ministry. I'm curious as to what doctrines you teach. Is it "Jesus is Love." and that's it or does it go deeper? If you could, please post your basic beliefs concerning these topics: >>>>
Hello Beroean, I just stumbled on your topic, I know its been a few days but hopefully your still reading it. This board moves crazy quick as you may have noticed.
I'm always pleased to talk to JW's online, as they are rather hard to comeby and not always willing to talk about religion. Particularly their own.:)
I myself am 23/f/never been a Jehovah's Witness
Now, I wanted to get your thoughts on some of the following. Don't worry, I have no quotes from any Watch Towers, nothing from the organization or any of their presidents. This is about other faiths, and some people you probably don't know, I want to get your opinion on the specific quotes of Herbert W. and some of his runnerups writings, and how you would view them in light of Scripture. Sorry this is long, perhaps a bit muddled as well.:) Sorry.
In Deuteronomy 18:19-22 we read
19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
So then the criteria does NOT come true, then Jehovah DID NOT speak it. Very simple. Although, at this point in history, false prophets are not put to death. Neither can we say that God MANIFESTS Himself as He apparently did in the past, unless what some of the following men claimed of course was true.
Now, there are those who have claimed to have special knowledge, sort of a privileged access, revelations from God. Typically, one will find such a person or group denouncing and repudiating the convictions of what is known as the "mainstream" Christianity as false, misguided, misleading, deceptive misinterpretations. Where at some point in the early History of Christianity, there were those who designed to pervert and corrupt the earliest Christianity, inviting in false doctrines and intentionally or unintentionally "losing" the original and "true" gospel as it were.
For one, there was Joseph Smith. He's well known, but there are hundreds like him over the last 20 centuries, and if I could just bring to light some of the more "modern" ones who expressed their opinion of their "work" in rectifying the Christian fallacies that had come to bear. After being torn about which church was "right," Joseph earnestly prayed to
God to reveal to him which was "right." Unique is the way the action that God took in Josephs case, manifesting himself physically.
Smith claimed to have had a personal visit from God the Father at the age of 15, who introduced him to Christ.1 Jesus then supposedly told him not to join any church because they were all wrong and all the Christian church's doctrines "were an abomination" (Joseph Smith -- History 19, Pearl of Great Price)
Joseph claimed that he truly was God's representative to the people on earth, as he beared the message that completed the Word of God.
"God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me to be God to you in His stead, and the elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it" (Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pp 319-320).
Victor Paul Wierville who founded "The Way International" claimed special authority, and the Way International still does, to quote regarding the leaders::::from http://www.factnet.org/cults/way_international/index.html "THE WAY INTERNATIONAL CULT EXPOSED"
"Leaders of the cult believe themselves to act and speak for God. They see themselves in the capacity of Moses, leading the flock out of harms way. Failure to immediately heed a directive from leadership is considered lack of meekness--a sign of rebellion and danger to the integrity of the cult houshold. Sam makes accusations about Elmer to Julie, Elmer's girlfriend. Sam's purpose in doing this is to convince Julie that Elmer is evil, and at the same time, to reinforce his god-given authority and her need for the protection of the Household. "
Sun Myung Moon (founder The Unification Church (see former member Steve Hassans book "Combatting Cult Mind Control) otherwise known as the Moonies) claims also to have been visited by Jesus to "finish" the work that He had started
"I am not working at random or just on a whim. Our movement has a deep spiritual origin. It came into being at this particular time by a mandate of God. I have a divine guiding light. Even though many people think I am just doing things my own way, there is no such thing as my own way."
Fortunately, many of these "self-proclaimed" "restorations of first-century Christianity" have said as much,, in writing. Writing has a way of preserving something so one can scrutinize a claim that perhaps didn't materialize, and then if it is as is most often the case, denied or downplayed, those words remain as proof of the typical assuredness, urgentness, and truth of what was preached previous to its reckoning.
Herbert W. Armstrong, who was the founder of the Worldwide Church of God in the early 20th century, began a radio program and published a magazine called "The Plain Truth" He
"There is no other church or work on the face of this earth that either understands or dares to proclaim these vital warnings!... This is the very Work of God!... You are now being warned!" (The Plain Truth, Roderick Meredith, Aug. 1957, p. 6.)
Concerning the prophetic nature of their messages, they believed that while evangelists were wishy washy due to the fact that they "didn't know what the Bible says is going to happen" but they were far more confident in their own abilities to interpret the Word.
"The popular, denominationally supported evangelists often make statements like this: 'I believe that God may use Russia to punish America for her sins.' Or, 'It now seems likely that World War III may come within five years.'... They use the words 'may,' 'could,' or 'might.'... The truth of the matter is that they dare not be specific about the future because they just do not know what the Bible says is going to happen! But on 'The World Tomorrow' broadcast and in this magazine we have dared to unlock the Bible prophecies and apply them to specific nations and events that are now being affected."
Of course the leaders who "understood and proclaimed these vital warnings!" did so in the past, so of course, now we have their written record due to their printing it in a widely circulated publication. It was not just someones "memory" of something stated off the cuff, but it was decided, written, reviewed and published. These men determined from their study of Scripture, that certain things were bound to happen. Not that they "may" happen, or "could" happen, but that they would happen. It was revealing what God Himself would do.
Certainly, if I were to write these things down, with specific years denoted, for the forthcoming century, and had it all backed up by Scriptural evidence, those who read and believed in my message would have that expectation. I was convinced that it was what God intended to happen through perhaps my special relationship with him and my study of Scripture.
After you read these prophecies made in the past by this man Herbert W. Armstrong, acknowledging the Scriptures that tell us that if a "prophets" word does not come to pass,,, than this person was NOT "speaking the word of Jehovah" that "Jehovah did not send him" ...remember Jesus' warning too of false prophets.
What can we conclude about these Prophets? Who makes predictions about how God will act from Scriptures? Was Herbert "sent by Jehovah?" Did he have a "special" revelation from Jehovah? Seeing these prophecies in hindsight, could you say that this man made DEFINITE predictions? Would you say that he had the "truth"? Did any of the prophecies made in "The Plain Truth" come to pass? Why would a prophecy not come to pass? How would you judge this group with their former prophecies?
***
"...the year 1936 will see the end of the Times of the Gentiles.... we may expect the present worldwide depression, time of trouble and fear of war to continue until the year 1936!... quickly after that time, we may expect to see the heavenly signs of the sun and moon becoming dark, the stars falling.... which shall be followed by the 'Day of the Lord."' (The Plain Truth, Herbert Armstrong, June-July 1934, p. 5.)
"Once world war is resumed, it must continue on thru the great Tribulation, the heavenly signs, the plagues of the Day of the Lord, and to the Second Coming of Christ, at the last battle, at Armageddon!... But this you may know! This war will be ended by Christ's return! And war may start within six weeks! We are just that near Christ's coming!" (The Plain Truth, Herbert Armstrong, Aug. 1939, p. 6.)
"Yes, it seems that God is allowing us another 19-year cycle to complete the carrying of his gospel of the kingdom to this sick and dying world.... There is a tremendous job to be done in the very short period that lies ahead of us." (The Plain Truth, Herman Hoeh, June 1953, p. 13.)
"God Almighty has spoken through His servants the prophets that He will punish our people for their sins. He will let our own lust cause such droughts, floods, pestilences and famines that we will be totally consumed and carried away captive to other nations as slaves within twenty years." (The Plain Truth, Herman Hoeh, Oct. 1955, p. 16.)
"Plagues are coming-and, according to this prophetic warning, in about two years from now! Our cattle have already suffered from the drought. Soon we shall find that the hoof-and-mouth disease will spread out of control! Rabid foxes, squirrels, muskrats will attack our children. For seven long and frightful years, we are going to suffer as never before-until we be left 'few in number.'...
"This seven years of national trouble takes us-if the dates which appear so definitely indicated by these prophecies are correct-from 1965 to 1972!" (The Plain Truth, Herman Hoeh, April 1956, p. 22.)
"Two years ago, Mr. Herman Hoeh showed in this magazine how God's word prophesied disease epidemics would strike the United States in two short years! Those epidemics are beginning now! And they will grow much worse! God prophesies that finally, within the next fifteen years, fully one third of our whole population will die of disease and famine!" (The Plain Truth, Garner Ted Armstrong, Dec. 1957, p. 23.)
"We have been daring, as no other church on earth, to proclaim definite, specific prophetic events to occur-and they have been happening!... For the specific prophesied events which this Church alone proclaims will soon be demonstrated as a physical reality! There will be no reasoning or argument about this. You will see and feel these things happen!" (The Plain Truth, Rod Meredith, June 1959, p. 32.)
"All of these internal troubles, combined with the rapid rise to power of a frightening huge combine in Europe, are going to spell out great disaster for the United States and Britain in the '60's.... It is going to happen! No amount of reasoning, 'spiritualizing away,' arguing, doubting, scoffing, or disbelieving is going to change it! Almighty God, in His inviolate Word, thunders from His great throne in the universe that these very prophecies are going to come to pass!" (The Plain Truth, Ted Armstrong, Mar. 1960, p. 10.)
"Frankly, literally dozens of prophesied events indicate that this final revival of the Roman Empire in Europe-and its bestial persecution of multitudes of Bible-believing Christians-will take place within the next seven to ten years of your life!" (The Plain Truth, Rod Meredith, Feb. 1965, p. 48.)
"Bible prophecy indicates that the final attack on the U.S. and Britain by this coming 'Beast' power could easily be launched perhaps as early as the spring of 1972-or earlier ...." (The Plain Truth, Rod Meredith, May 1965, p. 45. )
"The 'Day of the Eternal'-a time foretold in more than thirty prophecies-is going to strike between 5 and 10 years from now!... I am not writing foolishly, but very soberly, on authority of the living Christ!" (The Plain Truth, Herbert Armstrong, Feb. 1967, p. 47.)
"It doesn't take an understanding of certain 'Bible doctrine,' or necessary agreement with it, to admit to yourself candidly that what Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong was faithfully proclaiming back before, during and right at the close of World War II, and what he and others who have since come to join him in this great work of God have been proclaiming day in and day out ever since-is actually happening before your very eyes!" (The Plain Truth, Ted Armstrong, Nov. 1962, p. 21.)
*****
There are many more, but that is good enough to illustrate that they were making prophecies were they not? Giving their prophecies a "time-frame" to be fulfilled? Were specific enough that one would have known what was the "Bible" was predicting to occur?
Where do these men base there authority? Have they come to the conclusion themselves that they are unique channels of Gods truth? Or can it be objectively established? Are we to believe everyone who calls him or herself or them or themselves a "prophet" or portends to have a special relationship with God? To be his Mouthpiece? If there are claims then there must be a way at least to determine objectively if they are not what they say they are. How can we conclude that Joseph Smith's Mormonism is not as a Mormon said "the most important work on Earth today" or that his gospel is or is not as the church claims the "restoration of first century Christianity" where the only salvation is found through their gospel? How would one of the Mormons go about investigating if indeed it was "the Truth" as it is referred to among its memebers? Would they perhaps need to look at the "opposing" view? Consider information about who Joseph Smith was, what truth there was in the Book of Mormon and his other works, look at the history of the Church in general since it makes lofty and insistent claims?
What if the information that a Mormon needed in order to evaluate the "truth" in the Mormon message was "forbidden" by the church elders, and they were told that anything "negative" to the Church was untrue lying Satanic propoganda? Looking as you can at the Mormon message while not being a member, could you see anything that might be a red flag that maybe Joseph was not a prophet? How could a member of the Mormon Church for example determine by only studying Mormon approved material, that perhaps the Israelites did not come to the Americas 2,500 years ago? All the Mormon material says they did! And anything critical is false, lies, propaganda, apostates with an axe to grind are out to destroy Mormon faith. I have read enough Mormon thought to see that they operate that way. They term their excommunicated members "apostates" and though not strictly "shun" them. The question is, is the information that made that once believer leave "the truth" something that is false? Or is it perhaps something that the Church takes an interest in hiding because only a lies need such vigilant guarding?
Oh, so many more thoughts to consider, but I think this is long enough.
sincerely,
