I'm still waiting for your reply to my earlier post on this topic.
Sorry, I've lost track.
To which do you refer?
Thanks,
t.
IDENTITY=Behavior There are no CAUSELESS crimes or innocent evils
by Terry 89 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
Terry
-
Narkissos
Terry,
No problem. It's on p. 3 of this thread, http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/134139/2390264/post.ashx#2390264 and http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/134139/2390351/post.ashx#2390351
Your response (down the page)
"I'm going to have to think about his all day tomorrow before I reply"
left me expecting something more.
-
Terry
Narkissos: I would agree, deeply, with the phrase "cannot be judged" -- in the sense that nobody is in a position to really judge anybody morally
This is the part that caught my eye and made me cogitate.
I felt at some level that this idea needed probing. I also wondered if it would be worth the effort in the end. Further, I always give Narkissos the benefit of my doubt.
However, since you cannot live another day without my mewling screed......here goes.
Think of a floppy disc that goes in the old a: drive.
It needs to be formatted before you write anything important on it.
Think of that, for the moment, as a model of "what should be done". Hence it is the model of Morality.
(I know, I know, bear with me...)
Now, imagine that somebody deliberately fails to format the floppy first before writing the important file and it becomes corrupted. An immoral omission has occurred. The data is corrupt and somebody is at fault.
If this deliberate deed goes unpunished it might well happen again and again. Costly loss might occur over and over.
Wouldn't the owner of the data (or the one who suffered the most loss) somehow--in your view--be morally justified in demanding a redress?
Does the victim of the data loss need to be morally perfect before they can open their mouth and exact justice?
I think not. I suspect you think not as well.
No employer puts up with misdeeds which are costly despite being less than perfect themselves. It is a practical matter to address. It is only ncidentally a moral issue.
A mother who smokes is morally obligated to warn off their children from the dangers of smoking. Why? More good than harm comes from preventing bad things from happening.
Isolating do-badders from those whom they may well hurt is a moral act required out of practical necessity. The morality is only incidental.
That's my view and I don't even know if it is worth taking the time to state it.
You decide.
-
Narkissos
Terry,
You missed my point.
I understand (I think) the function of "punishment" in the social economy from a utilitarian perspective. In a "carrot and stick" manner it does serve education and public safety. It also helps control the socially disruptive drive for revenge.
But any rationalisation of it (as "justice," for instance) beyond this utilitarian viewpoint is the phony conceptual dressing of a social convention, the actual contents and reform of which are the result of past and ongoing power struggle. All the metaphysical "should" and "shouldn't" do not reach deeper than that -- which your reply actually confirms.
-
Terry
I understand (I think) the function of "punishment" in the social economy from a utilitarian perspective. In a "carrot and stick" manner it does serve education and public safety. It also helps control the socially disruptive drive for revenge.
But any rationalisation of it (as "justice," for instance) beyond this utilitarian viewpoint is the phony conceptual dressing of a social convention, the actual contents and reform of which are the result of past and ongoing power struggle. All the metaphysical "should" and "shouldn't" do not reach deeper than that -- which your reply actually confirms.
Hmmmm...I may still be missing the point.
Is your point semantic?
You seem to be saying that Justice can only be moral and cannot be utilitarian.
Or is the point more subtle than that?
The metaphysical "should" and "shouldn't" do not reach deeper than mere utility and practicality. That IS what I'm saying. To drag "morality" into is simply overloading.
-
writetoknow
In the real world attorney's argue both sides of an issue depending on which side is paying them or which side they work for. They are neither moral or sincere, But the phenomenon occurs within the heat of the agument they deceive themselves and more importantly others that they care about the morality of the issue.
One soon learns that the hidding place of worst people on earth is in the logic of the argument.
There is a certain type of profile that is drawn to JW's . A person that believes - the only good practiced on earth is being done by their org. All other good is really evil. So people cannot do good accept for JW's.
They really believe this to them it is perfect logic - shall we call this a theory that to them has becomes reality or is this a "brainwashing"? If it is latter - was it not done by logic?
Is it any wonder why people that are ex-JW's cannot or not able to copy with reality?
The rest of the world still believes there is good and good people will rise up to help their fellowman.
Good people will run into a building on fire to save a life
Good people will give their life for their country so others can live in freedom
Good people will work in the worst schools to try to save children from the streets
Good people will sacrifice their lives so others can learn of God and his gift of love for them
Good people will give an organ so another may live
Good people will march in the streets to help those that can't help themselves
Good people will go into the worst prison in the world to save that one and to educate
Good people will go to other countries to help the hungry of the world and minister to the sick.
And the list goes on from the founding of this world people doing good not talking about it but doing good. They have inspired millions to live a better and a much different life and I am thankful for that undying determination - not to give up on people.
This is the reality of the world you live in million upon million of groups set up to help others, new one coming up each day as we speak under the worst possible condition on earth. People giving their lives to help others.
Yet I do understand I really do I am ex JW's myself and my reality was once that good only came from one group. And when that group no longer existed for me there was no good. There was only one way to contribute good to others and that was taken away,
The good we contributed was one way - preaching. A hands off approach to what the rest of the world has to live with helping their brothers materially, physically, and spiritually. We concluded our moral obligation was over after we preached to them. Should it surprize us the information within this thread?
That we are so callus as to argue if people can change that human life is worth helping or saving? The whole org of Jehovah's Witness hardened their hearts to the world and their fellowman.
But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, And who is my neighbor?
Luke 10:29-37
And lastly ask anyone that has worked in what we call the "correction system" the most judgmental people are those that have been judged by the system. And it might surpize you because they have no hope they are filled with hate and judgments towards all things. Many of the exact conversation within this thread are the types of theories written by inmates. Because they cannot copy with the reality the rest of the world has to live in. All of them really do know they can change.
And some do change, but their reality has to change first...
-
Terry
The rest of the world still believes there is good and good people will rise up to help their fellowman.
Good people will run into a building on fire to save a life
Good people will give their life for their country so others can live in freedom
Good people will work in the worst schools to try to save children from the streets
Good people will sacrifice their lives so others can learn of God and his gift of love for them
Good people will give an organ so another may live
Good people will march in the streets to help those that can't help themselves
Good people will go into the worst prison in the world to save that one and to educate
Good people will go to other countries to help the hungry of the world and minister to the sick.
There are plenty of people of all religions, non-religious views, philosophies and persuasions who do great things, incredibly helpful things for other people. The do it because it seems good to do so. Good people are good for no other reason than that they are by nature drawn to these acts meaningfully.
A religion never made somebody good.
-
writetoknow
Terry I don't know what your point is? I quess your saying people can't change and were all idots because we think they can or we have?
A tree isn't really a tree
The sun isn't the sun
The earth really not an earh
and so on...
People that think they've changed really aren't smart enough to know they haven't changed
People that love God and had their lives transformed into caring for the fellowman are weak sick little people without enough education to understand the truth.
Well I am still thankful for all of us that are fooled in to believing in God and that people can change and are willing to extend a helping hand.
Yes, I will gladly be classified as weak uneducated idiot...
You win the world will soon adopt your reasoning and we will see how good it will become
You win!
-
Terry
Terry I don't know what your point is? I quess your saying people can't change and were all idots because we think they can or we have?
A tree isn't really a tree
The sun isn't the sun
The earth really not an earh
and so on...
People that think they've changed really aren't smart enough to know they haven't changed
People that love God and had their lives transformed into caring for the fellowman are weak sick little people without enough education to understand the truth.
Well I am still thankful for all of us that are fooled in to believing in God and that people can change and are willing to extend a helping hand.
Yes, I will gladly be classified as weak uneducated idiot...
You win the world will soon adopt your reasoning and we will see how good it will become
You win!
Well, your first sentence makes sense at least.
I can't figure out what you're on about.
You are obsessed with people "changing" like that can only mean one thing.
I said from the outset that people can modify their behavior as a strategy.
I gave the example of an alcoholic who sees that life isn't working and modifies his behavior by not drinking.
The salient point in my example was that this man with the modified (changed, if you like) behavior was STILL AN ALCOHOLIC.
If you miss what that means I can see why you don't understand me.
Particularly, read what I said here:
People speak about "free will" without really examining what they are saying. It is not an absolute. It is a very, very narrow and dangerous mental construct much misunderstood.
We follow our whims when we are young unless we are stopped or sidetracked. Then, we change our strategy. We either become clever and deceitful to get our way or we conform and become group-think automatons. It is our essential character which makes us one or the other.
Rare is the individual. Rare is the self-identity which understands how to modify whims, longings and desires well enough to order them sequentially according to social norms without trading one's volition for crumbs.
We can want, but; we can't decide what our wants are. We can postpone satisfaction and delay gratification, but; we can't sublimate ourselves into an authentic alternative personality.
-
writetoknow
Well thank you.
I think most people reading this thread would conclude that you were stating that people cannot change.
Obession: persistent idea or thought dominating a persons mind.
I haven't thought about this subject in years. If I were to have an obession it wouldn't be this subject for sure - lifes to short and we all know that.
I accepted it as a fact of life people do change so I don't think about it anymore then if the sun will come up tomorrow or if a tree is a tree. However, your thread brought it to mine again
So I do stand corrected