so nark, are you saying that if someone cannot honestly say that they wouldn't do the same in the same position or are so different from the person that they have no conception of what that person is like that that person committing the wrongdoing cannot be judged? if so, i disagree.
IDENTITY=Behavior There are no CAUSELESS crimes or innocent evils
by Terry 89 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
Narkissos
are you saying that if someone cannot honestly say that they wouldn't do the same in the same position or are so different from the person that they have no conception of what that person is like that that person committing the wrongdoing cannot be judged? if so, i disagree.
The person will be "judged" -- so s/he can be "judged" in a sense. On a legal, i.e., purely conventional basis. We'll have the full play of weighing "responsibilities," extenuating or aggravating "circumstances" -- all by conventional standards. "Judging" is the title of the play, however the real motive for playing it is not judging the individual imo, but protecting society (in the different ways I tried to describe above). No more than taking antibiotics to fight a disease implies "judging" the germs, at least in a moral sense.
I would agree, deeply, with the phrase "cannot be judged" -- in the sense that nobody is in a position to really judge anybody morally. But I didn't mean that the person "ought not be judged" in the conventional way, since no society can dispense with such a process (and its theatrical aspect). Perhaps we might just get to be a little more honest with ourselves as to what the process is really about.
-
DanTheMan
Excellent posts Narkissos, you are able to put ideas into words so well.
I wanna be smart like you when I grow up. Oh wait, I am grown up. Too late I guess!
-
writetoknow
That I would agree with, but everyone can't be that honest or seperate the two. I don't think JW's had it right, but they did not have it all wrong on some of the basic. I believe the creation was subjected to fultility as stated in Romans and is a waiting be set free by Christ and the Son's of God. Governments are part of the fultility allow to keep things in check.
Christians should be above the need of being keep in check if they truely are being regenerated and renew by the God's spirit. On the other hand if they fall and break the law then they are held accountable for their actions.
There in lays the problem if the bible is correct much of what is in Christainty today is weeds and they really are not regenerated into a new person where their deepest desired is to please God and his commandments. Organization try to legislate morality through rules and punishment. But when there is no organizaton to inforce those rules most cannot stand and become worst people. In fact, it does not have to be a religious arrangement to become worst if someone is not always there to check on the person. Many people develope bad habits after getting away from tightly run groups like the Marines and so on.
Judging harshly becomes a problem for true Christain because the properity they are judging belongs to God and according to his word He paid an unpayable price to buy these people. Thus, if they are from God and being regenerated by God they are his childern and he will correct them. To give up on them and judge them as unworthy of God's mercy creats a sitution that states God made an mistake and if he made that mistake he does not have the power to correct it. Hence hate the wrong not the person.
I really it not rocket science for anyone that loves their children the concept is really easy to understand. We always love are children because we remember the good not the bad they grow into through bad relation bad friend experience we always remember the core person and hope they will come back to that core. God takes it a step further He promises he will bring them back to the core He plants in them at their birth.
-
Terry
Hypothetically if your daughter is molested (God forbid) and later on in life she has emotional problems, suffers with depression and the like, gets pissed up and drives a car and (God forbid) kills somebody, or gets high on drugs because she is having a hard time coping with life and neglects her kids, do you want society to lock her up and throw away the key or would you want her to do her time and then be entitled to help to sort her life out.
Okay, I'll play.
The interesting (and tricky) aspect of hypotheticals is that you can stack the deck. You've clearly identified exactly the cause and the effect. Is this possible in real life?
I'm going to answer you by baring my soul here. I don't tell many people this (for obvious reasons.)
An inmate in the prison where I was held (over the Viet Nam war JW neutrality issue) attempted to rape me. He did not succeed. Barely. But, the changes I went through for a time were drastic.
I was so angry inside I didn't know what to do about it. I had fantasies that were....well, nothing short of brutal and sadistic.
I elaborately planned to throw boiling water in the inmate's face in the Mess Hall and pretend I tripped.
Suffice it to say the incident brought out an aspect of my character and personality I might never have known was there.
I'll cut to the chase. I didn't retaliate. I wanted to very badly. I didn't. I became who I was instead. I was a 20 year old kid/man who was purposefully endeavoring to do the best he could with his life.
To throw boiling water in an asshole's face would have demonstrated something entirely different about me.
So, in short, I don't think we become somebody different (better or worse) when we are visited by violence or sadistic predators. I think we are always who we are and act accordingly.
I believe this would be true of my daughter.
So, if my daughter killed somebody with her car (other than by accident) I think she would have to own it to the full extent of the law.
Would I want that to happen to her? Good God! Never! I'd move heaven and Earth to help her.
-
Terry
Change the environment and the personality changes.
That is silly.
You've not thought this through.
Your personality is not a mood ring or a barometer.
People of integrity act with integrity no matter where they are or what is happening to them.
-
Terry
Every time you say you would not do what someone else has done... either you're right and henceby forsake any right to judge him/her, because you admit to being different and unable to do what s/he was, obviously enough, able to do; or you're wrong and otherwise forsake such a right, because you admit you might do the same thing under his/her circumstances.
I'm going to have to think about his all day tomorrow before I reply.
-
fifi40
Terry
Whilst your restraint toward this individual is commendable, if you had 'beat the crap' out of him it wouldnt alter what people thought of you. Would you consider yourself a 'lesser' person, one not measuring up to his best, for having defended your own body. Would you consider others who did retaliate a lesser person than yourself, or as not having measured up to their best?
Yesterday you described my question as 'pure freud'............I have my own thoughts on why you did that............but I have to disagree with your description................Freud was psychodynamic theorist................I think my leaning (limited as it is) is toward behavioral theories which suggest that personality is a result of interaction between the individual and the enviroment.
To dismiss that enviroment influences personality, is flying in the face of some great minds...................Burrhus Skinner, Carl Rogers, John Watson.
Back to your point though....................crime requires punishment..........in the words of Skinner 'Consequences of behaviour determine the probability that the behaviour will occur again'..............maybe the case is that sometimes the punishment does not fit the crime.
But you cannot lump all criminals, all crimes into the same bag...................you cannot deny the criminal the opportunity to change........and therefore you have to be able to seperate the deed from the doer.
You spoke of the dog that bites................the dog needs a muzzle................cuddly tigers that eat your head..............animals do not reason, humans however have that ability...........if you choose to get into the cage.........your choice, but you better beware.
I hate child abusers, paedophiles.................I see no point in their continued existence...........my feelings are if you feel entitled to rob a child of their innocence and screw up their life for them.............you dont deserve to live..........those are my own personal views., but I cant say I feel the same toward other types of criminals. I can see why a child abuser becomes a child abuser, but I cant excuse it.
I can see why someone becomes a thief.....................I think they receive the punishment and if they decide to change..........then GREAT. I am not going to hold their previous crimes against them forever. I am not going to mix up who they are with what they may have done previously.
The world changes and people should have the opportunity to change with it.
I leave you with the words of John Watson
'Give me a dozen healthy infants, well formed, and my own specified world to bring them up in and I'll guarantee to take any one at random and train him to be any type of specialist I might select - doctor, lawyer, artist, merchant chief and yes even beggar man and thief, regardless of his talents, penchants, tendencies, abilities, vocations and race of his ancestors.'
Fifi Freud
-
truthseeker
Terry,
You make some valid points.
I think there are limits as to separating the crime from the perpetrator. Most people deserve a second chance, with exception to rapists, killers and murderers.
It's very difficult - we might say, "well, look at their past, they were abused, beaten etc etc" but does that have to be an excuse to commit crime?
For example, I heard on the news that there is a political party in Denmark campaigning for the right to have sexual relations with children. In this case, how can you separate the crime from the perpetrator when both are intertwined with each other.
People say "love the person and hate the sinner" but how can you treat people like they have two separate identities - one for who they are and one for what they do.
I'm not necessarily for "an eye for an eye" but in some cases it's the best solution.
-
Terry
Whilst your restraint toward this individual is commendable, if you had 'beat the crap' out of him it wouldnt alter what people thought of you.
Not exactly my point.
I had taken Karate lessons when I was a teen and I knew exactly what to do when the guy grabbed me from behind. He thought I was completely defenseless and a non-combatant JW who'd just give in.
At the "moment of truth" it was a choice of pulling the trigger on a series of violent reactions on my part OR doing what I actually did--I calmly spoke with him in a reasonable manner without letting on I was either afraid, weak or about to retaliate.
I could finally feel him go slack and give up on his idea.
Had he persisted.....I've no doubt I'd have stomped down hard with my right foot on his instep causing him to release me, whirled around and chopped him on his Adam's apple to take the wind out of him and then drop kicked him to Naples.
You see---I DISCOVERED what my true nature was ONLY at that moment. Had I had a violent nature the outcome would have been different.
I actually recall being amazed I hadn't just AUTOMATICALLY done him in. As you say: nobody would have thought less of me.
It was an epiphany moment.
I became who I was and realized who that I was.