IDENTITY=Behavior There are no CAUSELESS crimes or innocent evils

by Terry 89 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    "You see---I DISCOVERED what my true nature was ONLY at that moment. Had I had a violent nature the outcome would have been different."

    Exactly! You freely admit you did not understand yourself or your underlying behavioural tendencies up until that point. There are no doubt millions of latent "killers" or "molesters" or what-have-you that have not become patent, simply due to the lack of environmental contingencies that would enable such behaviours from being manifest! In any case, I am willing to bet that simply tweaking the situation you describe slightly would have led to a totally different outcome.....i.e. if you had no choice but "kill or be killed", in all likelihood you would kill...it is an inbred human/animalistic survival tendency embedded deep within your biology. Does that mean you have a violent nature? Not necessarily, but it demonstrates you are fully capable of the ultimate act of violence, simply in response to specific environmental variables.

    I would encourage you to read up on the old social psychology experiments of Zimbardo or Milgram for a fuller appreciation of how much environmental demands will alter your personality and resulting behaviours.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

    Your own statement simply proves that behavioural manifestations of underlying personality "traits" are under the strict control of a fluctuating environment.

    Personality is not static. Identity is not static. They are nebulous entities arising from complex neurobiological, physiological and genetic factors that are shaped by environmental variables in a constant state of flux.

    Finally, re: Identity=behaviour? You continue to treat these as separate and dissociable phenomena, which they are not. They are two levels of human psychology that are inextricably bound to one another. My identity (personality) is largely the result of how others perceive me and treat me. This is particularly true during early childhood when the personality is being formed. Second, my behaviours INFORM my identity, and vice versa through my constant social interactions with the world around me.

  • parakeet
    parakeet

    Narkissos wrote:

    "Every time you say you would not do what someone else has done... either you're right and henceby forsake any right to judge him/her, because you admit to being different and unable to do what s/he was, obviously enough, able to do; or you're wrong and otherwise forsake such a right, because you admit you might do the same thing under his/her circumstances.

    What exactly would be left of "you" with another genetic, cultural, economical, parental, educational deal than that which actually made "you"? Nothing or close to nothing."





    One of these young men (I'll call him Dave [not real name]) got married, and not long afterward I met him and his bride, a pleasant young woman I'll call Jenny. I saw them only once or twice after that.

    Less than two years into their marriage, Jenny was murdered in her home when she came home from work. After many months of investigation by police, Dave finally admitted that a co-worker pressured him for months to kill Jenny for the insurance money. Dave resisted at first, but finally agreed. The co-worker committed the actual murder while Dave was with a friend to give himself an alibi. Both young men are now serving life sentences.

    This case hit me really hard because I knew Dave and remembered all the times he played at my house as a child. I don't understand how someone who seemed like just an ordinary kid could commit such a horrible crime later in life.

    Dave is now trying to appeal his life sentence on the grounds that "he's just an average guy who made one terrible mistake." I'm not trying to make excuses for him. But I believe Dave's fatal flaw is weakness of character and susceptibility to pressure from others. I don't think the murder would have happened if Dave had worked somewhere else and had never met this co-worker.

    Maybe all of us have a thin line we would cross, given the right circumstances. All I know is that a young man I "mommied" when he was a child is in prison for life.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Personality is not static. Identity is not static. They are nebulous entities arising from complex neurobiological, physiological and genetic factors that are shaped by environmental variables in a constant state of flux.

    Finally, re: Identity=behaviour? You continue to treat these as separate and dissociable phenomena, which they are not. They are two levels of human psychology that are inextricably bound to one another. My identity (personality) is largely the result of how others perceive me and treat me. This is particularly true during early childhood when the personality is being formed. Second, my behaviours INFORM my identity, and vice versa through my constant social interactions with the world around me.

    Nebulous entites? And yet you are so certain!?

    Your identity, you say, is largely the result of how ___others___perceive you? Hardly! That sounds more like an inferiorty complex than a statement of identity!

    Your behaviors inform your identity? They do not flow from who you are? Does this mean we become a janitor because we mop floors?

    The ball rolls because it is round. It isn't round because it rolls.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    The ball rolls because it is round. It isn't round because it rolls.

    What about the round pebbles in the river bed?

    Form (shape) is the result of antagonistic forces interacting. What we call "personality" is no exception.

    There is no meta-physics.

  • fifi40
    fifi40

    Terry just a small point because I like you to play fairly;

    As you well know the identity and behaviours spoken of by the poster were not relating to job titles and work types, but if you want to take it literally; if the CEO of Microsoft is caught mopping floors he has for that period of time become a cleaner/janitor, (and what if he decides he actually likes mopping floors, likes the lack of pressure and gives up his previous occupation) - you see Terry change is possible.

    Fight fair Fifi

  • fifi40
    fifi40

    Ok Terry this just popped into my head, so I have got back out of my bed to come and post.

    What is the worst thing you have ever done?

    Have you ever shouted at your kids when you should not have?

    Ever spoken badly to someone when and regretted it afterwards?

    Lets say for example you once let fly at one of your kids, needlessly; you were having a bad day and took it out on the child. Do you want the rest of mankind to view you as a bad and abusive father for that one incident?

    Have you never done something, regretted it afterward and thought to yourself 'I am not going to do that again'?

    Now I am not talking about child abusers here, so please dont use them as a defense, but do you see what I am driving at?

    None of us are perfect. Some of us recognise when we have done something wrong and decide not to do that thing again. Some of us do and some dont.......................the law of the land is in place for those that dont.................... are you saying you are the judge of those that do?

    Fi

  • writetoknow
    writetoknow

    Mr. Incongruent

    This is the story of a man called Incongruent. Mr. Incongruent was a harsh hard critic of his fellowman; he hated their actions; which deeply troubled him.

    Mr. Incongruent was also a perfectionist; every hair on his head was perfectly combed. Oh how persnickety he was when it came to his friends and who he would associate with.

    However, one must remember as the story of Mr. Incongruent unfolds that he had not always been this way, that is, Incongruent. Once upon on a time he was just a simple man called Sinner. But as the story is told when Mr. Incongruent could no longer stand his human weakness - Mr. Sinner disappeared and Mr. Incongruent appeared!

    Mr. Sinner created Mr. Incongruent through a devout religious education. However, as the education increased his tolerance for his fellow human imperfections decreased.

    It is said that his standards were so high that it would be easier to enter an apartment on the sixtieth floor without stairs or an elevator then to please Mr. Incongruent!

    Because Mr. Incongruent was a perfectionist everything he did had to be exact and on a strict routine, even his nightly walk.

    Meaning of Incongruent is: Not in agreement as with principles; incompatible. Not in keeping with what is correct and proper or logical.

    Page One

    His evening walk was exactly the same each and ever night, he would walk down the same side of the street, that is, the right side, through town on out to Fishermans Warf then he would turn around and head up the left side of the street back home.

    In fact, one might wonder if Mr. Incongruent had each step counted? He also had a very practices gesture he would make to every passerby. The same gesture each and every time he would tip his hat smile a very smug and devote smile not saying a word as he passed on by.

    One thing Mr. Incongruent would never do was to stop talk with anyone on his nightly walk. One evening as Mr. Incongruent made his way on his nightly walk he noted his shadow was extra long? strange it seemed so much longer and larger then normal? Perhaps, he reasoned it was because it was late fall.

    As Mr. Incongruent approach an old woman pushing a grocery chart with all her belongings in it, he stepped aside to let her by ready to make his practice gesture. When suddenly out of nowhere a voice from his shadow said:

    “Get out of the way you old bag lady before I knock that last ugly tooth out of your mouth – you toothless homeless old hag!”

    Wow! Mr. Incongruent was stun dump founded; he could not believe his own ears. The old ladies face turn red and tears filled her eyes as she tried to hide her face to pass by.

    But his shadow started laughing at her so hard it started rolling on the ground mocking her as she tried to get away.

    Mr. Incongruent face had also turned red; he moved quickly to disassociate himself from his shadow. But his shadow was right on his heels, still shouting obscenities at the old woman.

    In all the fear and confusion Mr. Incongruent passed by an num, his shadow started shouting: “get out of the way you self-

    righteous hypocrite!”

    Page Two

    Mr. Incongruent was so embarrassed that he crossed the street, but as before his shadow was right on his heels cursing and mocking the nun. The next person Mr. Incongruent was to pass on his flight home was a man in a wheel chair with no legs and Mr. Incongruent knew exactly what his shadow was going to do.

    So Mr. Incongruent started for the middle of the street to escape, but too late: “You old wheel chair bum”; shouted hisshadow; “ I suppose you think I will feel sorry for you? Never! All you people want is a free handout, you freak of nature, get away from me or I will push you and your chair right into the drink.”

    Mr. Incongruent was bewilder standing in the middle of the street hopeless, traffic had stopped in both lanes as far as he could see, he and his shadow was the center of attention.

    Everyone was watching as his shadow climbed a top a car and started shouting curses at everyone. His shadow left no one out, children, old, young any person he thought was a little different his shadow would curse or make fun of.

    Instead of going home Mr. Incongruent started running as fast as he could - back to fishermans warf, there he hid under the docks until night fell so he would have no more shadow and for the first time he took a new way home.

    When he finally got home he fell to his knees and started fervently praying aloud, suddenly he saw his shadow on the wall, but his shadow was not in the same knelling position as he was in. No not at all, his shadow was standing in an upright position with his chest puffed out, his head held back, and his arms raised high and his shadow started praying also:

    “Oh God I thank you that I am not like the rest of these people of this town. I am not greedy, stupid, dishonest, an adulterous, I give to charities and I go to church twice a week . . .”.

    Before his shadow could say one more word Mr. Incongruent shouted: “Shut-up, shut-up! You miserable debauched foul mouth fool. You have ruin my good name in this town, my lives work, people think I am you”.

    Page Three

    But his shadow smiled and walked across the room stuck out his hand and said: “Let me introduce myself my name is Goody Goody the tongue you can no longer bridle.”

    Then Goody Goody slapped his face and started laughing and mocking Mr. Incongruent until he could take it no longer. Mr. Incongruent angrily took a swing at his shadow, this amused Goody Goody so much he started boxing Mr. Incongruent. This shadow boxing continued until Mr. Incongruent fell into a heap in the middle of the floor, exhausted and beaten.

    His shadow started mocking him until Mr. Incongruent once again got angry he then grabbed hold of his shadow and wrestled Goody Goody to the floor. But each and every time he pinned Goody Goody down he would change into another person Mr. Incongruent hated. Like an old friend, his father, his boss, his brother, his ex-wife even some of his own children.

    It seemed as though Goody Goody changes faces a thousand times before Mr. Incongruent ran to the bedroom and hid under his bed.

    Mr. Incongruent fought with his shadow for another three and half weeks before he had a mental break down. First he lost his job, next he went to drinking and finally he lost his house, so he took to living on the streets.

    Mr. Incongruent lived off of hands outs he got from the towns people, he would beg enough money for a cheap bottle of wine each day. It was not the greatest life, but at least the incessant Goody Goody was gone!

    Mr. Incongruent changed his name back to simple Sinner and when he did he noticed that the towns people started treating him with much kindness and compassion. They invited him in for meals and they offered him work and a place to stay.

    This kind treatment moved Mr. Sinner very much these were the same people he had been such a harsh hard critic of.

    Page Four

    He wanted to ask for forgiveness from God, but could not find the words to express his great grief and shame he had caused for so many. At that moment his shadow was back! But this time it was in the same position he was in. Then his shadow started beating his breast and he would not raise his eyes to heaven. His shadow said these words:

    “Oh God be merciful with me a sinner.”

    His shadow turned and said: “you are now Mr. Congruent a sinner, if anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue, but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.” James 1:26

    All copy right reserved November 30, 1996

    Congruent means: Coinciding exactly when super imposed; conformity, harmony.

    Page Five

  • Terry
    Terry
    The ball rolls because it is round. It isn't round because it rolls.

    What about the round pebbles in the river bed?

    Form (shape) is the result of antagonistic forces interacting. What we call "personality" is no exception.

    There is no meta-physics.

    Once a thing is what it is, what then?

    Once you are who you are do you get a free ride because you were formed by circumstance?

    Altruist thinking pretends the individual is a victim. The Altruist sees a person only in terms of their need.

    Victims and Predators: who gets our sympathy? The Predator! Why? Because they were victims! What about today's Victim? Well, too bad so sad for you. We need to fix the predator. Run along now and be quiet.

    If we don't step out of the way when the big round boulder is rolling we end up flat.

    In a competitive enviornment the winner succeeds by virtue of either skill or insidious strategy. Not everybody takes the trouble to learn to be skillful.

    In ancient times you had men who put down stakes and planted crops. They conserved their resources through bitter winters to harvest. They saved part of the harvest for winter. But, you also had men who didn't bother doing any of that. They waited for the harvest and then moved in and, by violent means, stole the fruits of the other man's labor.

    Two strategies: intelligent, dilligent, long-term and disciplined vs immediate, arbitrary, violent and ruthless.

    Society is easier today with all the built-in social programs and surplus sympathy.

    Yet, the same pattern continues. Inner city kids either get an education and learn to compete in the marketplace or they take what they want by any means necessary.

    I ask you: what good does it do any of us to cry salty tears because the guy who just drove by and shot your baby sister with an AK-47 didn't have a daddy at home and his mom is a crack addict?

    Who will weep for the little girl with the bullet in her brain?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Once a thing is what it is, what then?

    And when does this "once" happen?

    Singling a "thing" and saying "what it is" cannot be done except by artificially (language being here the basic artifice) severing it from its past, and future, and continuing interactions. You cannot talk about it unless you first "kill" it and frame it into a finite story with a beginning and end, and clear borders on each side. That's identity, and that's what judgement, in the epistemological sense as well as in the judicial one, requires.

    Discourse on being implies interrupting the course of events. It's an instant photograph taken out of a continuing action. Wave or mountain, shape keeps on changing. You can't say what without stopping time. Sein und Zeit.

    I'll leave the political aspect which confirms that what you are talking about is future protection of potential victims, rather than "judgement" of the "predator". To the dead girl "punishing" the murderer doesn't change anything either. And to her parents justice actually means revenge. I'm still waiting for your reply to my earlier post on this topic.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Singling a "thing" and saying "what it is" cannot be done except by artificially (language being here the basic artifice) severing it from its past, and future, and continuing interactions.

    And when does this "once" happen? At the point of a (destructive) behavior.

    An egg is an egg is an egg until the shell is broken and the yummy is cooked.

    What shaped the egg and what chicken might have strutted in the yard is beside the point.

    Remember our context of discussion here is holding people accountable. When the person commits the deed there is a freeze frame moment. The deed and the moment cry out.

    Being murdered, for example, is having your self severed from past and future and continuing actions.

    See?

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