The Watchtower and Creation (page 2)

Leolaia

Mad....Would you please edit your last message to shorten the overly long ***************'s and reduce the font sizes? Your formatting is bad netiquette and has thrown the margins on the whole page out of whack, making it very hard for other people to read Alan's thread.

Narkissos

Glad to "see" you AlanF.

I guess a JW apologist (a better one than Mad, that is) would crawl his/her way out of this one by pulling on the formal difference between br' ("to create") in Genesis 1:1 and `sh ("to make") in Exodus. As they do in Genesis 1:1,14 which (contrary to Mad's explanation) they interpret as (1) "creation" of heaven, including the sun and stars and (2) "making" of their present appearance as visible from the earth... (by whom?).

TopHat

Look how far Man has come in 100 years....I can only imagine a Powerful Entity creating the heavens and Earth in 6 days. I believe it's possible.

undercover

Yes...this is of interest. Thanks for posting.

I've always been aggravated that the WTS claims that the earthrock has been in existence for billions of years yet all the life on it is less than 50,000 years old.

What's happened in the last century is that the physical evidence has crushed the myth of a literal creation as described in the Bible. Creationists refuse to let go of the old mythology, but the WTS knowing that they can't defend that style of creation, attempt to merge real science and Bible mythology to come up with a plausible scenerio. Of course, all JWs are expected to accept this notion as pure Bible "truth" and believe it as much as they once believed that the generation of 1914 would not die off.

Your info is a cut and paste item. Thanks again.

undercover

I posted in reply to AlanF before I saw Mad's rant.

I know Alan will dissect him better than I can but I need to comment on a couple things said:

Note 1 (Day 1) : Genesis 1: 1- In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2-And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

...The Earth ALREADY existed when the Creative "Days" began..

That's the whole point of his post, dum-dum. Compare the scripture in Exodus to Genesis 1: 1,2 and it becomes clear that the creation of the planet is included in the six days.

....the FIRST Light (making day/ morning & evening/night) was from another source, since He didn't make the sun & moon til the 4th day.

um...what other source? Got any proof? Any evidence?

I look forward to AlanF's next post with great anticipation...

Doug Mason

It seems to me that the first creation account was written to counter "unacceptable" religious practices. The rocks, the sun, and whatever these others worshiped, were created by the one true God.

I think the people understood the message being given, and that the creation story was a vehicle for carrying that message. "In the beginning God" was there and it was he who brought into being the things worshiped by animists, etc.

The Creation story would be better understood by looking at it in the religio/political context of the 7th century BCE, maybe even down to the 3rd Century BCE.

Did they think this account or the second creation story were literal descriptions? Or did they see these as a means for illustrating a point?

And I don't think the "point" had anything to do with the length of a day. Scientifically, the interdependence of creatures and reliance on the sun could not wait for millions of years for a "day" to pass.

Doug

ringo5

Alan, I did find some manner of explanation on their CD, dealing with this the use of the word heaven.

***
it-1p.1059Heaven***
HEAVEN
The Hebrew sha·ma´yim (always in the plural), which is rendered "heaven(s)," seems to have the basic sense of that which is high or lofty. (Ps 103:11; Pr 25:3; Isa 55:9) The etymology of the Greek word for heaven (ou·ra·nos´) is uncertain.
Physical
Heavens. The full scope of the physical heavens is embraced by the original-language term. The context usually provides sufficient information to determine which area of the physical heavens is meant.
Heavens
ofearth’satmosphere. "The heaven(s)" may apply to the full range of earth’s atmosphere in which dew and frost form (Ge 27:28; Job 38:29), the birds fly (De 4:17; Pr 30:19; Mt 6:26), the winds blow (Ps 78:26), lightning flashes (Lu 17:24), and the clouds float and drop their rain, snow, or hailstones (Jos 10:11; 1Ki 18:45; Isa 55:10; Ac 14:17). "The sky" is sometimes meant, that is, the apparent or visual dome or vault arching over the earth.—Mt 16:1-3; Ac 1:10, 11.
This atmospheric region corresponds generally to the "expanse [Heb., ra·qi´a?]" formed during the second creative period, described at Genesis 1:6-8. It is evidently to this ‘heaven’ that Genesis 2:4; Exodus 20:11; 31:17 refer in speaking of the creation of "the heavens and the earth."—See EXPANSE.

While they don't actually make a full-blown argument here, they seem to be drawing a distinction between an all inclusive heaven and merely the earth's atmosphere.

Of course they don't elaborate, only saying context is used to make this decision, and then follow it up with the usual "evidently".

AlmostAtheist

With respect, Mad, did you read the scriptures Alan cited from Exodus?

I think the point is that these verses aren't as ambiguous as those in Genesis and don't easily allow for the idea that the earth was around for billions of years prior to creative day 1. Rather, they lump the creation of heaven and earth into that 6-day period.

Nark's apologetic argument is -- as he would admit, I think -- weak. It's arguable that God "made" light in the sense that he made it visible to an imaginary observer on the earth. But how could the heavens and earth be "made" in that sense? I can't think of a way to interpret "made" here that doesn't suggest creation.

The quote from the Watchtower, suggesting that the "heavens" from Exodus refers to the atmosphere seems absurd considering that the earth is also said to have been made. Yet they never touch on that.

I suppose one could argue that the heavens from Exodus refer to the atmosphere, and it was "made" in the sense that it was prepared to support life. And the earth was "made" in a similar prepared sense. But that seems like an unwarranted twisting of the verses to fit an existing belief. I can't imagine people 3+ millenia ago interpreting those verses in that manner.

You're a relatively free-thinking JW, Mad. You're not mentally bound to believe whatever the Watchtower spews. So what do YOU personally think? How do you reconcile a billions-year-old earth with the Exodus reference Alan cited?

Dave

Narkissos

Following on Doug Mason's post, Genesis 1--2:3a makes a lot of sense from a second-temple priestly perspective: describing the order of the cosmos as resulting from a series of separations (bdl is the verb for separating the clean and unclean, sacred ans profane, priesthood and lay people), foundation of the sabbath, connection of the sun, moon and stars (described as me'oroth, "luminaries," which otherwise applies to the temple lampstand(s)) to the sacral calendar (the "seasons," mo`adim, refer to the sacred festivals)...

Many things that seem odd from a modern linear reading become clear when you understand the structure of the text; e.g. the creation of the stars, sun and moon on day 4, which is perfectly logical when you consider that days 1, 2, 3, create the "boxes" (heavenly vault, sea / sky, earth) which are respectively filled or populated in days 4, 5, 6. This is a fascinating text provided you don't mistake it as "what really happened".

TopHat

Proof of God! Just look around you at the abundance of life so well put-together and in harmony. Not just the Earth is in harmony but the whole Universe.

The Watchtower and Creation

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