Gun control logic

by Gregor 174 Replies latest social current

  • dolphman
    dolphman

    For law abiding citizens: The primary purpose of guns is as a crime deterrent, self defense, target shooting, and hunting.

    The primary purpose of guns for the military is offensive and defensive strategy in warfare.

    The primary purpose of guns for criminals is to instill coercive fear in their victims to cooperate with said criminal's desires.

    So, no, killing is not the primary purpose of guns- certainly not in the way it relates to the topic under discussion.

    Have you ever thought about working for the republican party as a spinster? You are a genius, I give you credit. Unfortunately, for anyone willing to look at reality for what it is, can't help but fall over laughing.

    Next time I play russian roulette, I'll remember killing isn't the primary purpose of a gun. That is, if I have any brains left to do any remembering with.

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate
    Next time I play russian roulette, I'll remember killing isn't the primary purpose of a gun. That is, if I have any brains left to do any remembering with.

    Yes, of course, and the primary purpose of a knife is killing, and the primary purpose of a bow and arrow is killing, and the primary purpose of a ball is killing, and the primary purpose of a vehicle is killing, and the primary purpose of a an axe is killing, and the primary purpose of a a baseball bat is killing, and the primary purpose of a tire iron is killing, and the primary purpose of a swimming pool is killing, and the primary purpose of a pointy stick is killing, and the primary purpose of a rope is killing, and the primary purpose of a dart is killing, and the primary purpose of a rock is killing, and the primary purpose of a electricity is killing...

    BA- Who knew?

    PS- Read, understand, research- before commenting, mmk?

  • TD
    TD
    No one gonna talk about the lingusitic differentiation between 'the People' and terms referring to individuals?

    With respect, Abaddon, I think you could probably make a more plausible argument that the 2nd amendment is outdated and archaic today. The path you have taken here strikes me as problematic.

    I would question the basis for differentiating "the people" of the 2nd amendment from "the people" of the 1st, 4th, 9th and 10th amendments. Historically, the freedom "to assemble", the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, and the retainer of non enumerated rights are understood to be individual rather than collective rights and there is a wealth of case law in America where this has been affirmed. I understand the argument that the 2nd amendment is an exception, but disagree with that assertion on historical grounds.

    If you're familiar with American history, you are probably aware of the fact that this was originally a matter of intense debate. Advocates of the draft constitution argued that guarantees of individual rights were not needed. The so called "Anti-Federalists" disagreed, citing the 1689 British Bill of Rights and the 1776 Virginia Declaration of Rights as examples. Jefferson argued for a compromise --a draft constitution containing a Bill of Rights. In a letter to Madison, he stated,

    "A bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular and what no just government should refuse or rest on inference."

    It was with the understanding that a subsequent Bill of Rights would guarantee individual liberties that state legislatures agreed to ratify the draft document. Five of the states that ratified the Constitution also sent demands for a Bill of Rights to Congress. All these demands included a right to keep and bear arms:

    New Hampshire: Congress shall never disarm any Citizen unless such as are or have been in Actual Rebellion.

    Virginia: "That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated Militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free State. That standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the Community will admit; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to and governed by the Civil power." (North Carolina and Rhode Island almost identical)

    New York: That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms; that a well regulated Militia, including the body of the People capable of bearing Arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free State; That the Militia should not be subject to Martial Law except in time of War, Rebellion or Insurrection. That Standing Armies in time of Peace are dangerous to Liberty, and ought not to be kept up, excess in Cases of necessity; and that at all times, the Military should be under strict Subordination to the civil Power.

    Contemporaneous state Bills of Rights also protected the right to keep and bear arms, sometimes in much more explicit terms.

    North Carolina (1776) "[T]he people have a right to bear arms, for the defence of the State; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

    Kentucky (1792) "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned"

    Ohio (1802) "..That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State; and as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be kept up, and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to the civil power."

    Indiana (1816) "..That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and State, and that the military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power."

    Alabama (1817) "..That every citizen has the right to bear arms in defence of himself and the state."

    Connecticut (1818) "Every citizen has the right to bear arms in defence of himself and the state."

    Maine (1819) "Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms for the common defence and this right shall never be questioned."

    In the same vein, there are numerous papers and letters written at the time that support the idea of an individual rather than a collective right to bear arms:

    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." (Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1785)

    "

    Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive." (Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, 1787)

    "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787)

    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves in all cases to which they think themselves competent..., or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press." (Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824)

    The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution... Little more can reasonably be aimed at with the respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year. (Hamilton; Federalist 29)

    In the books that I've read, credit for the 2nd amendment is primarily given to James Madison. Madison publicly used the concept of an armed populace not just in contrast to, but in opposition to the idea of a standing army.

    "Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. (Federalist 46: The Influence of the State and Federal Governments)"

    (For those that don't know, the federalist papers were a series of articles published in prominent newspapers of the time in an attempt to sway the various state legislatures into ratifying the constitution.)

    I believe this very tiny sampling strongly contradicts both the notion that the founding fathers did non envision a standing army and that they did not see an armed citizenry as a check on the same. (As archaic as that idea might appear today.)

    Last, I'm certainly not a Narkissos, but I don't see a problem with the two clause construction of the 2nd amendment especially given its historical context.

    I think I understand the example you gave, if "public library" is being used as a vignette for "militia." (?) People would be guaranteed access to books only within the confines of the library and similarly it could be understood that the 2nd amendment guaranteed access to arms only within the auspices of a militia.

    But I don't think this fully captures the historical context of the 2nd amendment where a citizen or group of citizens could provide their own arms for such endeavors.(Michael Bellesiles discredited thesis notwithstanding) On that basis, I would question whether "Library" is an appropriate metaphor because it tends to obscure the idea that a patron might conceivably have the opportunity to bring his or her own books.

    I think a closer parallel to the 2nd amendment would go something like this:

    "A well-regulated public reading program being necessary to the literacy of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."

    This states a goal (literacy) and gives a means (public reading), but neither states nor implies either that it is necessarily someone else's responsibility to provide reading material or that possession of reading material might be prohibited in contexts other than public reading.. The first clause is justification for the second clause, that is to say, a primary reason for the right, but not an abridgement of it.

    The Free Press Clause in the 1842 Rhode Island Constitution carried a similar wording to the 2nd amendment:

    "The liberty of the press being essential to the security of freedom in a state, any person may publish his sentiments of any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty..."

    It's not a perfect parallel, but is clearly referring to an individual and not a collective right and does not limit self expression to only one venue.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Bother Apostate

    Yes, of course, and the primary purpose of a knife is killing,

    Depending on variety. I'd be quite happy to agree a single shot low calibre pistol was not primarily intended for killing. There is a difference bwteeen a butter knife and a Fairburn-Sykes

    and the primary purpose of a bow and arrow is killing,

    Yes, we really need to cut down on those ride-by arrowings...

    and the primary purpose of a ball is killing, and the primary purpose of a vehicle is killing,

    Does being silly have a point?

    and the primary purpose of a an axe is killing,

    Historically no. A unsharp impact weapon does this well enough in a pre-armour era. Axes were undoubtedly primarily designed for cutting wood.

    Just be honest; guns were invented to kill and most are still designed to kill. Your... I think you like the phrase 'weasel words'... don't change facts.

    TD

    With respect, Abaddon, I think you could probably make a more plausible argument that the 2nd amendment is outdated and archaic today. The path you have taken here strikes me as problematic.

    LOL. You are quite right. But it is impossible to reach semantic closure on the 2nd A either way, as it is phrased so badly. Please realise I have had this argument many times since abou '97 and I now am well aware that amendment won't happen and the primary cause of so many deaths is not gun availability, although that does not help.

    I think amendment on grounds of the damage to society now caused by liberal gun laws is the real grounds though, but one that won't happen before 2050 if ever.

    The US are trapped in the current situation as regards availablity of guns. Only social reform can change the violence in American society.

  • BizzyBee
    BizzyBee

    The question is, when does society recognize the necessity to allow the innocent, elderly, and otherwise vulnerable to defend themselves from those who decide to shoot them down like rats at the dump.

    Well, those are the very people most likely to shoot someone accidently - most likely themselves or their own loved ones. The problem is, this isn't like a TV show, where people have experience and expertise and the opportunity to practice on their neighbors, as God intended. For example, an elderly person with a firearm in the home has a one in 65 chance of actually defending themselves and their possessions against an intruder, against a 1 in 7 chance of shooting themselves or someone they love. Not good odds.

    The truth is, there are some spectacular gun-defense stories, as noted. But there are so many more tragedies that the ratio warrants much more scrutiny. Bottom line: If having a gun insured our safety, you can bet there would be no discussion.

  • Gregor
    Gregor

    The ready availability of a weapon, that is, a loaded gun in the closet or bedtable can have a good or bad impact on the owners life. Many years ago in California there was a serial rapist on a rampage. His MO was to enter homes, usually through unlocked apt. balcony doors, open windows, sliding patio doors etc. He would walk into the bedroom and waken the sleeping occupants. Then he would have the woman tie up her husband at gunpoint. Then he would rape her. It was scary as hell.

    I, along with many other people, obtained a .38 revolver and put it in the drawer next to my bed.The scenario I envisioned was that I would hear the intruder then get the drop on him. I would have my wife tie him to a chair and I would put a very tight rubber band around his genitals. As soon as his giblets swelled and turned nice and black I would call the police to come get him.

    But the reality was that that loaded gun made me feel so fearful and edgy that I couldn't sleep very well. Not that I was afraid of the gun itself, but rather the fact that it put me into the mindset of having to be ready to use it. After several months of this I got rid of it. This was my experience with gun ownership. However, I am sure that some people might get peace of mind and a feeling of safety from a guns presence.

    Then, of course, there is the danger of alcohol and guns. Either angry outbursts at a mate or impulse suicide.

    Bottom line - Gun ownership carries with it a huge responsibility. But I feel that it should be up to the individual to decide if they want to take it on.

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    Bottom line - Gun ownership carries with it a huge responsibility. But I feel that it should be up to the individual to decide if they want to take it on.

    Apparently the state of VA agrees with you, and Mr. Cho felt he was ready for that particular responsibility.

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    I chose to get a gun with controls that are safe, yet logically placed, and easily used in an emergency:

    HECKLER AND KOCH HK MK23 PISTOL

    The HK Mark 23 Caliber .45 ACP pistol gives shooters match grade accuracy equal to that of the finest custom made handguns—yet exceeds the most stringent operational requirements ever demanded of a combat handgun.

    The Mark 23 provides this accuracy without the need for hand-fitted parts common in custom-built match pistols costing thousands of dollars more.

    One of the most thoroughly tested handguns in history, the MK23/Mark 23 project originated in 1991 when HK began development for the U.S. Special Operations Command, the organization that directs the activities of America’s most elite military units, including the Navy SEALs and the Army Special Forces.

    On May 1, 1996, the first HK MK 23 pistols were delivered to the U.S. Special Operations Command for operational deployment, making the MK 23 the first caliber .45 ACP pistol to enter American military service since the venerable Government Model 1911A1.

    During testing, MK 23 pistols met the most stringent operational and accuracy requirements ever demanded of a combat handgun. Endurance testing demonstrated a service life of over 30,000 rounds +P ammunition. To meet the reliability requirement, the pistol had to demonstrate a minimum of 2,000 mean rounds between stoppages (MRBS) with both M1911 ball and +P ammunition. All pistols exceeded the 2000 MRBS with an average of 6000 MRBS. In more than 450 accuracy test firings from a precision firing fixture at 25 meters, MK 23 pistols far exceeded the government requirement, averaging 1.44 inches, with 65 groups of less than one inch. There were four groups of .5 inches, with 5 rounds going through the same hole!

    Features:
    • threaded O-ring barrel with polygonal bore profile
    • match grade trigger
    • one piece machined steel slide
    • frame mounted decocking lever and separate ambidextrous safety lever
    • can be carried “cocked and locked” in with the safety lever on
    • patented HK recoil reduction system
    • corrosion resistant blued finish
    • corrosion proof fiber-reinforced polymer frame
    • oversized trigger guard for use with gloves
    • universal mounting grooves for installing accessories
    • ambidextrous magazine release lever
    • extended slide release
    • extractor doubles as a loaded chamber indicator
    • patented Lock-Out Safety device
    • lifetime warranty

    BA- That's my idea of "Gun Control Logic"

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24
    Apparently the state of VA agrees with you, and Mr. Cho felt he was ready for that particular responsibility

    I believe there was an announcement on the news today, that from now on, the medical/mental health status of any individual that has been admitted for observation or treatment, will be linked to the federal site. Guns cannot be purchased in some states if their names are in the system for this reason and it would appear that now VA has joined in with those. sammieswife.

  • 5go
    5go

    5go

    I'm glad your humour is similar to mine in some respects :-)

    Which begs the question. What is the point to fighting a depot, if he has regulated your miltia against any possiblity of doing it ?

    No, I find why Americans need guns to overthrow tyrants when Eastern Europe did it without a far more interesting question, but no takers yet.

    No one is going to give me examples of when gun-owners HAVE actually 'protected freedoms' by using guns against the government... so 30,000 die a year as a result of a freedom that no one has used, nor is ever likely to. Not very pragmatic is it? Oh, there was Waco, but he was a Whako...

    Still no one interested in actually discussing the root cause of American violence?

    Still no one going to accept IF there was a majority of Americans in favour of reform of gun control, the 2nd Amendment could be struck down if the politicians acted in line with itheir constituent's desires?

    No one gonna talk about the lingusitic differentiation between 'the People' and terms refering to individuals?

    Don't worry, it's human nature to avoid the topics that show up how weak one's argument is... ;-)

    And as far as I knew pool were not designed with the primary purpose of killing, so your apples and elephnats comparison lets you down.

    Still answer my question why bother with the the second admendment if their is a provision elsewhere for a military ?

    A well regulated militia can't attack the body that controls it lest it ceases being a well regulated miltia and become a traitorous band (like our founding fathers) to the counrty it was regulated by ?

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