Jesus in the Passover - The Origins of the Memorial Meal

by AlphaOmega 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  heathen

  I was talking about the jews. I'm sure some do but most don't but that can go for alot of peoples . I can't get how they can believe that Abraham and Moses were great figures but somehow jesus didn't exist . Just talking about the religion they practice as a whole and not sure what to call it since it's not judaism .

  I disagree with the 144k being all jews but they are included , it's actually a spiritual Israel not an ethnic one and God poured his spirit on the believing gentiles as well as jew in the first century . Was doing some reading this week again and did see scripture in which the apostles wrote to the gentiles stating that they are now included with the promise given to Abraham . Really it's all just one big family .
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  AlphaOmega

  I disagree with the 144k being all jews but they are included , it's actually a spiritual Israel not an ethnic one and God poured his spirit on the believing gentiles as well as jew in the first century . Was doing some reading this week again and did see scripture in which the apostles wrote to the gentiles stating that they are now included with the promise given to Abraham . Really it's all just one big family .

  I agree - that is what the parable of the wedding feast tells us. It was offered to the Jews, but they didn't turn up, so it was offered to any passerby (gentiles).

  But Revelation still seems to make a distinction with the 144,000 (if taken literally)... They could be Jews or they could be "spiritual" Jews.

  I don't think that the 144,000 are meant to be focussed on. I'm not worried either way regarding the 144,000 - that's up to God - it's his business.

  I don't think that it make much of a difference, as you say - he pours his spirit out on everyone.

  Is this the passage that you read? It still begs the question about "the remnant". It could just refer to the relatively small percentage of people who accept Christ?????

  Joel 2:28-32 NKJV

  [28]

  "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.

  [29]

  And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

  [30]

  "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.

  [31]

  The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

  [32]

  And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
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  JosephMalik

  AlphaOmega,

  What about the other Passover meals, especially the last one on the seventh day where the Unleavened bread was made from new grain? The meal described here only considers the first one after which our Lord was arrested. Yet we know that later after this meal was consumed by Jesus and His apostles: Joh 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. What Passover meals were they concerned about?

  Joseph
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  AlphaOmega

  I have messed up my formatting by cutting and pasting from e-sword. I am not shouting.

  It is likely that this "second" Passover refers to the general festival of unleavened bread... Whereas the first "Passover" refers specifically to the Passover Seder.

  Luke 22:1 informs us that the Passover was the name given to the week of eating unleavened bread (see Exodus 12:6,18).

  Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover.

  [Luke 22:1 NKJV]

  'In the first

  month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. [Exodus 12:18 NKJV]

  Excerpt from: Kenneth F. Doig, New Testament Chronology, (Lewiston, NY: Edwin Mellen Press, 1990).

  Chapter 21
  THE TWO PASSOVERS

  Matthew, Mark and Luke said that the Last Supper was the Passover meal and that Jesus was crucified the following day. John appears to have said that Jesus was crucified before the Passover. Can this seeming inconsistency be reconciled?

  There are solutions that allow the wording of all four Gospels to be exact and also give clues to the year of Jesus' crucifixion. One solution recognizes that many Jews of the Diaspora observed two days of Passover. The pilgrims may have brought this second day of Passover to Jerusalem, and John is referring to that second observance. A second solution recognizes the different calendars in use in Jerusalem, where sunrise reckoning or sunset reckoning might cause the Passover to fall on different days. A third sees the Last Supper as an observation of Passover according to the solar Jubilee Calendar of the Essenes, and John's Passover according to the lunar sunset calendar. The last possible solution recognizes that the "Passover" was a figure of speech that included all the week of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

  How does everyone else manage to format so easily ??????????????
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  JosephMalik

  AlphaOmega,

  The festival of Unleavened bread is Passover. It was named after the bread not the Lamb and only came to be called Passover later. You have shown this clearly by the text you provided. The teaching that there were two days involved is not supported by any text since there were actually seven days involved not two. People do strange things I know, especially when they do not understand such things and today they stretch it out to eight days in some places. Proves nothing. It was never called the festival of wine, or the festival of the Lamb but was properly called the Festival of Unleavened bread or cakes as this was the sacred food of significance eaten during Passover. The Lamb was only involved in the very first meal and the eating of this Lamb took place on a Sabbath as such a Sabbath was forced to take place by Law with another Sabbath on the seventh day concluding Passover. So while you are providing minute detail, I saw only one day and Sedar not Sabbath associated with this meal, yet they are significant details as well. Our Lord could not have died the day after eating this meal according to scripture. Why? Because the next day by Law was still Sabbath and our Lord did not die on a Sabbath. And communion we know consists of unleavened bread and wine not the meat of a Lamb or its blood so the bread really is significant and was treated in a sacred and unusual way during Passover. This detail is therefore significant and I was hoping that you could shed more light on all this.

  You said: The last possible solution recognizes that the "Passover" was a figure of speech that included all the week of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

  Maybe last for some but according to scripture: Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. Pretty good support for something that is in last place?

  Joseph
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  AlphaOmega

  You said: The last possible solution recognizes that the "Passover" was a figure of speech that included all the week of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

  Maybe last for some but according to scripture: Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. Pretty good support for something that is in last place?

  Because that quote from Kenneth Doig's book says that it is the last possible solution, it doesn't mean that it is the least likely or least significant. I personally think that it is the most likely due to the length of the Festival of Unleavened Bread.

  Indeed, I fully agree with your comments about the lamb being eaten ONLY on the first day...

  When you sacrifice an animal on the altar, don't offer bread made with yeast. And don't save any part of the Passover meal for the next day.

  [Exodus 34:25 CEV]

  This passage obviously alludes to the lamb and to the Seder.

  The following passage confirms that it was the Passover Meal / Seder that Jesus was eating.

  He said to them, "I have wanted so much to eat this Passover meal with you before I suffer!” Luke 22:15

  The bread was significant, in that it was ordained by God not to have any yeast in. Yeast represents sin, this new type of bread was to be "sin free"

  There does seem to be much confusion between Jews about how long the festival lasts some say 8 days, some say 7. I have not come across anything that jumps out at me regarding the Sabbath. I do however have a good book called "Jewish Family Celebrations" by Arlene Rossen Cardozo, which explains a lot about the merging of two festivals - The Pesah meal and the Festival of Unleavened Bread.

  She says that the Pesah meal became the occaision for the Passover Seder (historic, emotional and spiritual aspects of the Exodus) and the week long Festival of Unleavened Bread became symbolic of the practical aspects of the Exodus (fleeing before the bread could rise etc).

  If you can't track down a copy, I will scan the relevant pages for you. It is a bit beyond me as it has much to do with different groups of Jews thinking different things.

  To sum it up. I cannot agree with the Witness position that the Last Supper was an event separate from the Passover Seder. They seem to think that Judas was present at one and not the other. This linking of the Passover to the "Last Supper" makes a lot fall into place

  This sums up my view... " As the Jews practiced these laws and rituals, they would learn through their physical senses [the] spiritual truths concerning their relationship with God." Jesus in the Feasts of Israel”, Richard Booker, Bridge Publishing - 1987

  AO
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  JosephMalik

  I do however have a good book called "Jewish Family Celebrations" by Arlene Rossen Cardozo, which explains a lot about the merging of two festivals - The Pesah meal and the Festival of Unleavened Bread.

  AlphaOmega,

  Once again that book means nothing as there were not two festivals but only the one, the Festival of Unleavened Bread during which the Lamb was roasted which later came to be called Passover for short. And the Law states:

  EX 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. 16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. 17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.

  Many think that their salvation and Exodus only involved one day as the rest are nearly always ignored but that is not what actually happened. What this texts is saying is that it took seven days to bring Israel out from the land of Egypt. They were not safe until they crossed the Red Sea. Summed up the event is called day. The first and last day of this epoch were holy convocations (Sabbath days) and the Lamb was eaten at the beginning of the first one as shown in texts just prior to this. So Passover is Sabbath by Law. There is no way it can be pushed back to the day of Preparation for this Festival as nearly everyone does to avoid what is staring them in the face. Their theology is wrong and they will not correct it.

  Joseph
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  AlphaOmega

  Are you saying that there was only one festival but the Jews separated it?

  From my understanding of the Bible and what you are saying, the festival was 7 evenings (14,15,16,17,18,19,20) 8 if you interpret that God commanded to eat until (and including) "the evening of the 21st". The first night they ate lamb. They had to burn what was left. Then for the remaining days ate bread.

  So the Passover SEDER is within the Festival of Unleavened Bread.

  Are we in agreement?
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  heathen

  Galations3:29 I believe was what I was looking at . Jesus of course being the greater Abraham anyway . I agree the jews were called first to the new covenant but then the gentiles were allowed in . IMO the 144k represent martyrs of chrisianity . Revelation elludes to the death of these martyrs as leading to the reason for the delay in christs coming and then the release of the four winds of destruction . Revs 6 :9-11 definately mentions the number needing to be filled . The WTBTS has a symbolic death dogma that I don't think fits in because the first resurrection belongs to the holy remnant to which the second death has no authority . The apostle Paul states that those who died in union with christ would rise first and inherit the kingdom then the "rapture" of the church would take place. I don't like using the word rapture tho but people seem to know what I'm talking about , because it clearly says the lord descends not that people ascend .
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  JosephMalik

  Are you saying that there was only one festival but the Jews separated it?

  AlphaOmega,

  They did not separate it. They simply renamed it for brevity.

  Quote: From my understanding of the Bible and what you are saying, the festival was 7 evenings (14,15,16,17,18,19,20) 8 if you interpret that God commanded to eat until (and including) "the evening of the 21st". The first night they ate lamb. They had to burn what was left. Then for the remaining days ate bread.

  Seven days that began in the evening. The first day began on the 14th but was called the 15th since this was only about 5 hours of it. The bulk of the 15th took place at night and into the next daylight time. So we have from the evening of the 14th to the end of the 21st, seven days of 24 hours duration each. This makes 8 dates but only 7 days if you plot it out. To identify a first evening like this the date of the day before would be used. This is perhaps the major reason so much confusion takes place. It is context, perspective, failure to recognize the fact that time moves forward not in reverse. And the word day does not also mean date every time. Furthermore this arrangement will on some years cause two consecutive Sabbath days to form making that great Sabbath 48 hours long as it was on that fateful year we are discussing.

  Quote: So the Passover SEDER is within the Festival of Unleavened Bread.

  Yes and there was also a day of preparation for the seventh day or Sabbath within this Festival. This is when the new grain was prepared to make the unleavened bread. This is why you will see:

  De 16:8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein.

  Not that they did not eat unleavened bread on the seventh. The six days made up days using old grain, but on the day of preparation for the seventh day they used new grain as this Law was included in the wave harvest which began within Passover week. All rather fitting and descriptive of our Lord's resurrection don't you think since it also tied His 40 day ministry here on earth to Pentecost, the time when the faith was anointed to preach salvation to the world.

  Joseph